appreciate it and happy mother's day. >> thank you. >> thank you very much for watching and happy mother's day to you all out there and we'll be back next week because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." ♪♪ ♪♪ he's a very smart person. he's an outstanding person hchlt e made a lot of money, ran for office.

he became the governor of north dakota. the numbers there, the numbers that he's done there, the job that he's done is unparallel, and his wife is incredible. so get ready for something, okay? just get ready. but doug burgum has been incredible, and the country's lucky to have him. >> that was donald trump over the weekend in new jersey, introducing the man who could be his running mate this november. we'll have more from the former president's rally, including his praise for a fictional serial killer. meanwhile, trump's former fixer is expected to take the stand today in the criminal hush money case. we'll get expert legal analysis ahead of michael cohen's blockbuster testimony. and also ahead, we'll have the latest from the middle east, as hundreds of thousands of people are fleeing from southern gaza because of israel's looming military operation in rafah.

♪♪ good morning, and welcome to "way too early" on this monday, may 13th. i'm jonathan lemire. thanks for starting your day and week with us. and we've got a lot to get to this morning beginning here. in just hours, the donald trump hush money criminal trial will kick off its fifth week, with arguably the most anticipated witness of the entire trial expected to take the stand, michael cohen. the former attorney and fixer for trump is set to testify about his role in negotiating the hush money payment to adult film actress stormy daniels on trump's behalf during the 2016 presidential campaign to keep her queets about the alleged sexual encounter with trump. cohen contends the reimbursements to him were falsified as trump's direction,

which is central to the prosecution's case. but the defense will undoubtedly hammer away at cohen's credibility. in 2018 cohen pleaded guilty to federal campaign finance violations and other charges and was sentenced to three years in prison. but even before taking the stand, cohen was a key point of discussion on friday when judge juan merchan told prosecutors to ask cohen to stop commenting publicly about the former president or the hush money trial. trump's lawyers argued strenuously that it was not fair for their client to be under a gag order and to not be able to talk about cohen while cohen was free to talk about trump. additionally, prosecutors said they have two witnesses left to call, and they may be able to rest their case by the end of this week. the defense may then call its own witnesses. we will have much more on this

trial a little later in the show. and speaking of the former president, he returned to the campaign trail over the weekend, and while doing so, offered some praise for one of the most notorious fictional characters of all time. at a rally in wildwood, new jersey, on saturday, trump likened migrants entering the country to hannibal lector, the fictional character in "silence of the lambs." it's a comparison he's made over the year, but unlike previous occasions, trump lauded the person to the people in new jersey. >> silence of the lambs. the great late hannibal lector, he was a wonderful man. he often had a friend for dinner. remember this? he said, excuse me, i'm about to have a friend for dinner.

but hannibal lector, congratulations. the late great hannibal lector. >> trump drew a big crowd in new jersey, but still safely a blue state. meanwhile president biden spent part of his weekend on the west coast, raising millions for his re-election bid. in a private fund-raiser outside seattle, biden ramped up his attacks on trump telling donors this. it's clear when he lost in 2020, something snapped in him. he's not only obsessed with losing in 2020, he's clearly unhinged. just listen to what he's telling people. the president was also in the bay area raising money over the weekend, and the biden campaign announced he'll be returning to the west coast next month for a star-studded fund-raiser in los angeles. the campaign is looking to boost fund-raising in an effort at a time when trump and the rnc attempt to close the contributions gap.

a-list againsts include former president barack obama and the actors george clooney and julia roberts. the two will be featured in a campaign social media contest and have their names on contributions emails. president biden is also expected to hold a fund raiser with bill and hillary clinton early this summer. that's according to a source familiar with their plans, telling nbc news. joining us now, white house reporter for the "associated press," darlene summerville. darlene, thanks for starting us off this morning. president trump has been largely confined a manhattan courtroom in recent weeks, but he did get out on the campaign trail over the weekend. but it provided us a rare split screen where we had trump and president biden both on the campaign trail at the same time. tell us a little bit more about what we heard from each man. >> good morning, jonathan. as you mentioned, president

biden spent part of the weekend on the west coast. he was in the san francisco area, also seattle. he had four fund-raisers between those cities, raising millions of dollars. largely the president's fund-raising speeches are a split between trying to draw a contrast with the former president donald trump talking about him, as you mentioned earlier, as being unhinged, you know, something snapped in him in 2020, he made some jokes. what we saw from former president trump over the weekend in new jersey was what the local authorities said there was a huge crowd of 80,000 to 100,000 people who showed up for him in this reliably blue state for this rally. the former president isn't getting out on the campaign trail as much as we all know because he's spending a lot of his time in a new york courtroom, but his appearance over the weekend was basically an hour and a half of criticized

president biden largely over his handling of the economy, electric vehicles, china, and his praise of hannibal lector as you just mentioned. >> yeah, hard to imagine the serial killer vote will come out strong in this election, but one never knows. an certainly some other officialsdy putted the size of that crowd, but certainly a big one all the same. so, darlene, the biden campaign and the president himself have largely avoided talking about trump's legal issues. they don't want to be perceived as having a thumb on the scale in any way, although, the president will occasionally make a joke but not talk about it directly. behind the scenes, how is he trying to use it to his advantage while trump is confined to a courtroom, while the salacious details are there for even to see. how is he trying to further

split screen the image? >> absolutely. one of the things you're seeing with president biden is the pace of his campaigning. they, with former president trump stuck in a courtroom, the playing field or the campaign field is largely biden's to take advantage of, and you're seeing the president trying to do that with the trip over the weekend to the west coast. he has some more campaigning coming up this weekend. basically every week we'll see this split screen with the former president in a courtroom, and president biden will be out somewhere in the country talking about what he's doing and how awful he thinks it wouldif the former president is reelected, that sort of thing. so that's one of the ways they're trying to take advantage of it. and, of course, the other way they're trying to take advantage of it is also through the fund-raising. right now president biden has a bit of a cash advantage over the former president, and that's something they would like to

maintain and build upon, and so we're also seeing that as another way that they're trying to capitalize on the situation. >> and as you note in your report, they're trying to remember what the voting was like. thanks for starting us off. darlene superville, good to see you. still ahead on "way too early," the wave in the latest protests on college campuses as comedian jerry seinfeld's commencement speech spurred some walkouts. plus a random attack in new york city. those stories and a check on sports and weather when we come right back. when we come right back and they're all coming? those who are still with us, yes. grandpa! what's this?

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welcome back. comedian jerry seinfeld was met

with protests yesterday as dozens of pro-palestinian demonstrators walked out during his commencement address at duke university. we have more. >> reporter: comedian jerry seinfeld taking the stage at duke university where he was scheduled to deliver the commencement address and receive an honorary degree. soon after he was introduced, some students walked out, raising their palestinian flags with chants. it comes after protests nationwide of the israel/hamas war. he delivered his speech. >> again, i know a lot of you are thinking, i can't believe he invited this guy. too late. i say, use your privilege. i grew up a jewish boy from new york. that is a privilege if you want to be a comedian. >> reporter: the sitcom creator taking to instagram after the

attack saying in part i will always stand with israel and the jewish people, later visiting tel aviv. the university saying we respect the right of even to address their views publicly. at uc berkeley, the student body yes, sir president's speech was interrupted by chantz. >> this wouldn't be perkily without a protest, so i get it. >> a handful turned their backs on the chancellor, some wearing messages on their graduation caps like free palestine. and at the university of texas, some protested after the ceremony concluded. it came to a boiling point just as universities and colleges break for the summer. >> that's nbc's elwyn lopez with that record.

meanwhile most don't think anti-semitism is a major problem on campus. a poll from generation lab says 53% say anti-semitism is a, quote, small problem. meanwhile 14% call it a huge problem on campus, and one third say it's not a problem at all, that from generation lab and "u.s. news & world report.." elsewhere the department of justice is seeking a 40-year prison sentence for the man who attacked paul pelosi, nancy pelosi's husband. he was charged with breaking into their home in 2022 and assaulting paul pelosi with a hammer. pelosi suffered a skull fracture and serious injuries to his right arm and hands. he was hospitalized for six days. in a memorandum submitted friday prosecutors argue it t crime is an act of terrorism, writing

this, at a time when extremism has led to attacks on public and elected officials, this case presents a moment to speak to others hab boring plans. and steve buscemi was punched in the face. the assault happened just before nun on wednesday in midtown. the 66-year-old actor had bruising and swelling to his left eye, but was not seriously injured. police put out a nameness statement about the assault that day, but it was confirmed only yesterday by buscemi's representative that the victim was the actor. the nypd says it's still looking for a suspect. still ahead, we'll turn to sports with highlights from both the nba and nhl playoffs. and take a look at some of yesterday's action around major league baseball. plus, we'll bring you a check on the weather forecast as we start another workweek. we'll be right back. we start an. we'll be right back.

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crossed the ball with a turnover. the other win and tries and gets it to go. beating the clock. it's intercepted. murray gets it to go. got it. jamal murray's half court heave at the buzzer capped a win heading into the break. denver held a double-digit advantage for all but three seconds in the second half, aaron gordon chipped in 27, and the nuggets wrapped all second straight road win, leaving minnesota timberwolves to win,

tying the games at two apiece. it's a lot of talk. they said, not so fast. they go back to denver for game five tomorrow night. to the eastern conference, the new york knicks did not fair nearly as well as they dropped both games against the indiana pacers including a 121-89 blowout yesterday afternoon. the pacers led by as many as 43 points in the series-tying victory. the knicks seem depleted right now. game five tomorrow night at madison square garden. now to the quest for the lord stanley cup. two losses at home over the weekend now have the boston bruins sadly on the break of elimination. the b's opened the scoring with two goals in the first period and were shut out the rest of the way. the panthers ended up winning with a 3-2 victory and there was a controversial call about a goalie interference call that wasn't. florida now up three games to

one looking to wrap up the series game five at home tomorrow. meanwhile up in edmonton, the vancouver canucks got a hat trick and had a 4-2 win over the oilers. they'll play tomorrow night in edmonton. turning to major league baseball right now. the atlanta braves are looking to wrap up a three-game sweep on the road. mets trailing by a run. >> not going. ninno. oh, what astair. brandon nimmo after getting injured wins it with a walk-off shot. >> you just saw it brandon nimmo's win. and to troenltd now.

an entertaining try by the blue jays vladimir carrere row jr. who broke out with a cartwheel after snagging first base. take a look again. his acrobatic maneuver almost fell short as did the efforts against the twins. they lose to minnesota, 5-1. good try, vlad. time now for the weather. let's bring in michelle grossman for the forecast. sadly, it's monday. >> look at all this wet weather from the gulf coast into the great lakes. you could see some storms once again. once again we're watching the threat for severe weather. it's been days and days and days. we're watching that once once again mainly from eastern texas to across the gulf coast. we're seeing heavy rain. 13 million people impacted across the gulf, the eastern

parts of texas. we're looking at that heavy rain. seeing a little bit of hail, the thunder, the lightning. that will be the theme all throughout this monday. the grounds are saturated. we're going to see rain on top of that. so we could see a chance for flooding. how much rain are we talking about? 1 to 2 incheser hour. some spots could see up to 5 to 8 inches. especially where you see the denmark colors, the red, orange, yellows into portions of louisiana, mississippi, alabamaing and then into the panhandle as well. 3 million people at risk for very large hail, 2 to 4 inches, winds gusting up to 60 miles an hour. that could bring down a few trees and power lines. a few tornados are possible from houston to new orleans to panama city. likely in some spots we're seeing stronger storms. certainly within this yellow shading as well. waco has had so many storms. corpus christi could see some

stormts. wednesday we'll be wet from the carolinas into parts of the ohio valley and the northeast. northeast could see heavy rain on wednesday. that's extended into new england. jonathan, we're also looking at more rain into the northern plains. that wet weather continues and so do the storms. >> michelle grossman, thank you as always. still ahead here on "way too early," we'll bring you the latest on the middle east as secretary of state antony blinken declines to identify a redline to usaid for israel. we'll be right back with that. . we'll be right bacwik th that. so this is pickleball? it's basically tennis for babies, but for adults. it should be called wiffle tennis. pickle! yeah, aw! whoo! ♪♪ these guys are intense. we got nothing to worry about. with e*trade from morgan stanley, we're ready for whatever gets served up. dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. i'd rather work on saving for retirement. or college, since you like to get schooled. that's a pretty good burn, right? got him. good game. thanks for coming to our clinic,

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early." it's just before 5:30 a.m. here on the east coast, 2:30 out west on this monday morning. i'm jonathan lemire. thanks for being with us. we turn to overseas. the united nations say more than 300,000 piece have now fled rafah. the announcement came hours after israel announced new evacuation orders, raising fears their troops may soon invade the area. since then, there's been intensifieding in the area. dozens of people have also been killed in air strikes there. the biden administration has voiced its opposition to a ground invasion in rafah, but us real continues to claim the move is necessary to defeat hamas. now "the new york times" is reporting that the top leader of the terror group is not even

hiding in rafah. u.s. officials say the leader most likely never left the tunnel network under khan younis, the city further north. it's believed he's also using a group of israeli hostages as human shields. the officials tell the times that israeli intelligence agencies agree with this american assessment. additionally secretary of state blinken spoke about it during his interview with "meet the press" yesterday. he said israel lacks a credible plan for protecting people within gaza city and he was pressed on president biden's threat to withhold weapons. take a listen. >> i want to drill down with you on president biden's threat to withhold weapons. what exactly is his redline, mr. secretary? what would trigger him to say, i am now with holding weapons? >> look, we don't talk about redlines when it comes to

israel. >> president biden did talk about a redline, though, mr. secretary, respectfully. >> let me be clear. >> what would trigger him to make that decision? >> sure. so, first, we have been holding back and we're in active conversations with israel about the provision of heavy or high payload weapons, large bombs, because of the concern that we have about the effect these weapons can have when they're used in a dense urban environmental like rafah. we're discussing that with israel right now. second, what the president said was that if israel goes in with a major military operation in rafah, in that case, there are certain systems that we will not provide to israel that would aid that effort because it's something that we do not want to be part of, given the damage it would do to civilians, and, again, not to achieve a durable lasting effective result for israel and for its security. >> joining us now, retired cia

officer marc polymeropoulos. he's an msnbc security and intelligence analyst. good to see you this morning. let's talk about the state of play in rafah. we just noted "the new york times" piece, the u.s. intelligence, that the u.s. and israelis agree with. also "the washington post" had an article over the weekend that suggestions that u.s. may be withholding info on hamas. you say that's not consistent with what you experienced when you worked with the agency. tell us about this murky intelligence and what the fate of rafah is going to be in the coming weeks. >> jonathan, good morning. first of all, the redline the administration has put forward is more a hue of pink, frankly. et at the same time, i think there is an acknowledgement that something will be done in rafah.

in terms of where the idf is right now, they're not in the city. the israeli mihmstair is still on the outskirts. there have been evacuations for over 300,000 palestinians. there was an announce nnlt that the national security advisers met with the idea there are going to be delegations that get together in person to discuss what happens in rafah. most importantly in all of this, jonathan, the israeli press on both sides, there are details growing, concerns from leaders about netanyahu's lack of a plan for the day after. so this a34r50is to rafah. it also apply, frankly. two divisions are back in central and northern gaza because there's no plan because of hamas reconstituting. in effect you have the u.s. administration in concert with the national security establishment against netanyahu's lack of plan. that's pretty significant. i think those are the discussions we're going to see

the day after. one last police, i know you noted to "the washington post" talking about u.s. with holding almost actionable intelligence about the location of hamas. i don't think that's correct. i think that has caused quite a stir. that's not something they would do with scores of american citizens killed and five or six american hostages with hamas somewhere in the gaza strip. >> yeah, still immense amount of pressure right now on the president as this rafah operation looms. let's turn to russia now. two things. first, president putin, a bit of a shakeup in his defense ministry, a significant one here in this moment and it comes at the same time as russia is making real progress around kharkiv with fears around the city, the second largest in the cityings that could boy tell chally fall to russian forces. give us some information.

>> the defense minister who has been around for quite some time has been removed and is now chief of security council. and the new guy, frankly, is a technocrat. he's an economist. this suggests perhaps that vladimir putin understands the industrial part of the war effort is most important. they need to innovate. they need to continue production of drones and other systems. so the criminologists will be looking at this very closely, i would hope. there's some intelligence looking at exactly why putin would do this. it's interesting because the one is a loyalist and the petro chief was a big hawk on ukraine. what it means remains to be seen, but he's shuffled the decca little bit. you alluded to russian military moves in kharkiv north of you crepe. this is something certainly to watch because some villages are

falling. kharkiv is going to be in the range of more russian strikes. i think overall it's a refleksz it's taken a long time for the u.s. and western aid to arrive. russia is going to see some success on the battlefield, and the citizens of kharkiv are the ones who might be most affected. >> all right. we appreciate the analysis as always. retired cia officer marc polymeropoulos. thanks for joining us. still ahead here, we'll go live to cnbc for an early look at what's driving the markets this morning and whether or not the dow can withstand the best week of the year. and the new findings on consumer sentiment and the economic concerns americans are now raising. we'll be right back with that. r. we'll be right back with that.

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for that let's bring in cnbc arabile gumede who joins us live from london. arabile, good monday morning to you. stock futures slightly up with wall street looking toward fresh inflation data this week. we'll be watching that. what's the sense as to what's driving the markets this morning? >> yeah, so it's going to be all about that inflation print actually, jon, a bit of a trade that might look toward finding some sort of gap. we do have fed chair jerome powell speaking tomorrow, so that certainly might move the needle as well. really wednesday's date, the cpi print will be quite significant and the key worry is whether the inflation continues to stay sticky around the 3% mark right now. will it hit 2%. how soon can it ultimately get there? the bit is it will go down later in the year. maybe you'll get only one interest rate as well. that is anticipated to happen in november. all of those questions are

percolating through the market. earnings are still making their way through the system. still a whole host of data to wade through, but certainly there will be that cpi print to look out for. >> so consumers are becoming increasingly worried about the trajectory of the u.s. economy. you've got new data on that. tell us about it, please. >> the consumer sentiment survey out of michigan state then, it's the u.s. michigan state sentiment data, which then points to a significant drop, a 12-point percentage drop on a month-to-month basis. we were sitting at 77 points. we've now dropped off quite considerably. it's a big drop-off in that sentiment data when the market had been anticipating 76 -- 77 to 76. it tells you consumers are perhaps thinking consumers will get a whole lot worse here. even so, if you look through the weeds, consumers think the

inflation will hit 3.5% in one year's time, which is, of course, nearly double where the fed would like it to be. of course, that 2% figure being the one that the market is looking for p that's the highest as well in six months as well when it comes to that print. so it is worrying data, consumers not feeling too confident about the u.s. economy. >> certainly that matters in an election year. cnbc's arabile gumede live from london. thank you. still ahead here, we'll take another look at donald trump's criminal hush money trial and what we can expect when the court reconvenes later this morning. michael cohen expected to be on the stand. we'll be right back with that. t. we'll be right back with that. hi, i'm katie. i live in flagstaff, arizona. i'm an older student. i'm getting my doctorate in clinical psychology. i do a lot of hiking and kayaking. i needed something to help me gain clarity. so i was in the pharmacy and i saw a display of prevagen and i asked the pharmacist about it. i started taking prevagen and i noticed that i had more cognitive clarity.

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payments in the lead-up to michael cohen's testimony. we heard from madeleine westerhout, trump's gatekeeper. under cross-examination she related how trump was fielding incoming requests nonstop and he would simply right one-word answers on requests that came before him. for example, he responded to one bill by writing one word, "pay." they have sought trump to be too busy for some of the documents that landed on his desk. then later on friday, a paralegal from the manhattan office verified records paid from trump's personal checking account. another relayed a series of messages between a former "national enquirer" chief and daniels' manager whether she would go public about her affair

with trump. joining us now, msnbc legal analyst danny cevallos. so good to see you again. we appreciate you here. today is michael cohen. let's start with the importance of cohen's testimony for the prosecution. >> arguably he's the whole case. up until now the witnesses were a window dressing or pre-butt to michael cohen's credibility. if he had zero credibility, you could make the argument he alone would be able to testify for the prosecution because presumably he's going to provide direct evidence. that means essentially donald trump told me to do things that are crimes as opposed to all the other circumstances, which, by the way, is powerful evidence of donald trump having the requisite intent of committing all these other crimes. that's when you have doctors and witnesses describing the

payments to deal with it by cohen and repayment by trump. what they ooesh tried to do is minimize his accountability with documents. perhaps in a comedic moment, several comedic moments throughout the trial, michael cohen has been hit with shrapnel by some of the prosecution's witnesses who designed him. someone at one point put together a screen of insults at cohen throughout the case. there are a lot. the jury has prepared for cohen as kind of a comic figure, sinister figure, a person who breaks things and then fixes it. the prosecution's plan is when the smoke clears, they will acknowledge as they often do

with cooperating-type witnesses, they'll action noon this is a witness with problems, but this is a witness the defendant chose to do business with, and you, the jury, can look at all the other documents and witnesses who corroborate what michael khouw men says. >> we can expect it to be a couple of days, secret? >> at least. the prosecution has moved relatively quickly, which i think is part of their strategy. it's disorienting to the defense attorney when they're moving so quickly. it's tough to keep up with planning out your cross-examination and your strategy, but i think the prosecution is going to try to get to cohen as fast as they can. it's the prosecution's we'll talk during "morning joe" and have complete coverage of the trial. up next, as we wait for donald trump to decide on his running mate, one name, surprising name, is emerging as a possible choice. we'll show you who is front and center at front's new jersey rally over the weekend.

coming up on "morning joe," we'll bring you live reporting from outside that courthouse in lower manhattan where, indeed, hours from now, star witness and former fixer michael cohen will be on the stand for testimony that could make or break the prosecution's case. plus, cohen's former lawyer and adviser, lanny davis, will join the conversation to talk about how he sees this playing out. also ahead, president biden is ramping up his attacks against donald trump. why biden is now telling supporters that his predecessor is clearly unhinged. he believes something has snapped. "morning joe" just a few moments away.

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with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary. spraying flonase daily gives you long lasting non-drowsy relief. flonase all good. also, try our allergy headache and nighttime pills. welcome back. former candidate doug burgum appeared at trump's rally over the weekend. he briefly addressed the crowd before the former president took the stage. trump later praised him and fueled speculation that he is indeed a contender on the vice presidential short list. >> he is a very smart person.

he is an outstanding person. he made a lot of money. ran for office. he became the governor of north dakota. the numbers there, the numbers he's done there, the job he's done is unparalleled. his wife is incredible. so get ready for something, okay? just get ready. doug burgum has been incredible, and the country is lucky to have him. >> joining us now, contributor to the conservative website "the bulwark" and happy denver nuggets fan, tim miller. served as communications director for jeb bush and spokesman for the rnc. tim, do we believe in bergmentum? he is really rich, appearing to trump, but what do we think of this? is this a real thing? what would burgum bring to a trump ticket? >> well, first, do we believe it? who knows? trump is obviously enjoying this latest season of "the apprentice" and bringing all these people out, having them suck up to him, and that's what

he likes. i think trump also has this kind of hole in his heart. despite the fact he used to be the president, he still needs his ego to be puffed up. having other rich guys around, notice he mentions that all the time, like, he sees it as validation of him, right? it's somebody that is successful and would suck up to him like this. his ego likes burgum. you mentioned the money that could be kicked into the campaign. there is a money gap now between biden and trump. the last thing is, he does look the part, so to speak. trump wants somebody when, if you close your eyes, picture the movie of the president, burgum looks like the generic vp. why does he want trump is the better question. this guy is rich and could do anything he wanted in his life. he saw what happened to mike pence. liz cheney had harsh words for

him over the weekend, i think rightly, over his misstatements for trump's record on foreign policy. burgum to trump is the more befuddling part than the other way around. >> we know trump doesn't want anyone else to take any of the spotlight. burgum is nonthreatening. but it is a long shot. tim, like so many of the other potential vp candidates, and we've heard from tim scott and more, when pressed about the upcoming election, none of them are committing, none are committing to honoring the result were trump to lose. they dance around it or flat out say they won't do these things. they're doing trump's bidding. as more and more republicans hear that, it plants the seeds, without evidence, this will be rigged this fall. how dangerous is all this? >> extremely. you know, jd vance also did this, you mentioned tim scott. the burgum one is interesting. if you watch the clip of him being interviewed, his was

retrospective, looking back at 2020. he won't even really acknowledge that the 2020 election was, you know, resolved appropriately, right? he is out there kind of doing this dance of, oh, he's not doing the crazy my pillow conspiracies by the high-class conspiracies. you know, we don't know how covid changed things. we had these drop-boxes, all this nonsense. these folks all know better. you can imagine a different scenario where donald trump was not in their lives, where they would not be on tv, you know, trying to undermine our democracy. trump has corrupted all of them. i think it is extremely dangerous, and it shows just how far and how deep the rock goes. somebody like doug burgum, you know, who is sort of a generic, educated republican, not a maga republican, is going to go along with this, imagine what people who are real, true believers are thinking about, you know, the election lies. we saw the results of that in 2021. >> tim, we mentioned earlier in

the show, a split screen, a rare moment where both trump and biden on the campaign trail because trump is spending so much time in manhattan courtrooms. let's take a look from 30,000 feet. what trend lines do you see in this race? where do you think it stands right now about six months to election day? >> yeah, look, i think joe biden's issue right now in the polls, which is why you see him polling below what his result was in 2020, is that he hasn't coalesced the traditional democratic groups. i think biden is doing pretty well with the never trumpers, the suburban, former republican types, but the problem is, with younger voters, with non-college educated voters of color, black and hispanic voters, particularly men, his numbers are slack. i think the big question for biden is, can he kind of, you know, bring those folks back into the fold? meanwhile, are people going to be increasingly turned off by trump the more they focus in? if you look at this, the most

engaged people, people watching cable news, biden is doing very well with the most engaged voters. it is the unengaged voters trump is doing well with. maybe some of them tune this stuff out. when they re-engage with trump, see the ads biden is putting up, do they change their view? the less engaged voters and the softer parts of the biden coalition are the key ones at this point. >> i think that's right. the biden campaign's theory of the case has always been, even if it's not until the fall, when people start paying attention, they'll be turned off by trump. we don't know what role this trial, especially if there is a conviction, may play. right now, though, very, very close. contributor to the conservative website "the bulwark," tim miller, thank you. hope you'll join us again soon. thanks to you for getting up "way too early" with us on this monday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. >> "silence of the lamb," has anyone ever seen this? the late, great hannibal lecter