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the star witness had assessed money next week. plus, a new report from e d the war in gaza as israel prepares to invade rafah. and trump famously does not like spending money. but what happens when his campaign starts cutting corners? why republicans are sounding the alarm as the 11th hour gets underway on this friday night. good evening, i'm katie fang in for stephanie ruhle. we are now 179 days from the election and 15 days into the trump hush money trial. with stormy daniels done testifying, day 15 was mostly about records. but things will get heated again next week. today prosecutors revealing that their star witness, michael cohen, will take the stand on monday and face-off against his former boss. my colleague, laura jarrett, has more. >> reporter: tonight nbc news

learning from multiple sources prosecutors will call their star witness, michael cohen, on monday. he called himself donald trump's fixer. now a vocal critic. cohen unleashing on his old boss in his book and on social media, spotted online this week wearing a t-shirt depicting mr. trump behind bars. the judge today directing prosecutors to inform cohen that the judge is asking him to refrain from making any statements about the case or mr. trump. but not placing a gag order on:. mr. trump remains barring him from attacking witnesses and the jury. >> it's not a case, there is no crime. there is no crime, and they failed to show a crime. >> reporter: cohen, a critical witness for the prosecution as the jury has now read his text messages, heard his voice, and seen evidence that he paid stormy daniels $130,000 just days before the 2016 election so she couldn't derail the campaign. the defense says her story of

sex with mr. trump was false, a shakedown for money brokered by cohen, making his testimony and credibility on the stand essential. mr. trump has pleaded not guilty to the charges of illegally disguising his reimbursement checks to cohen, his former attorney, as quote legal expenses to cover his tracks. the face-off between the presumptive gop nominee and cohen likely to be one of the most dramatic of the trial. cohen comes with baggage, including previous convictions for campaign-finance violations and lying under oath. meanwhile, today, the jury hearing more from former trump aid madeleine wester house, who sit outside the office and confirm mr. trump met with cohen at the white house in 2017, where prosecutors say that his eyes devised the scheme. but signed checks without reviewing them first, contrary to what mr. trump said in his book and other witnesses said at trial. >> with that, let's bring in our leadoff panel.

catherine christian, district attorney at the manhattan d.a. office. nbc legal analyst and defense attorney danny. and hayes brown, editor and writer for msnbc.com. thanks all of you for getting us started this hour. i'm going to start with you, catherine. let's talk about the fact that today did not include necessarily marquee names or blockbuster territory, but you and i both know as former prosecutors and trial lawyers is the details that matter. and we got that through records. we had custodians of records that were coming from at&t and verizon, and there was time that was taken in front of the jury to get these records entered into evidence. do you think the jury is going to be able to appreciate the nuances of having these records in once they go into the jury room and they are able to see the evidence? >> yeah, they will understand monday, if it's true, when michael cohen testifies and testifies about phone calls that he made, phone calls that he received, text messages. so they will understand why

that boring stuff was really, really important. and it is. the most important part of this case are the records. the 11 checks, the invoices, the ledger entries. because those are the 34 counts of defying business records that donald trump is charged with. as you said, the details are important. it's very interesting, but that's not what this case is about. >> to kathryn's point, there was, what i thought, the highlight of the day. and let me eke out a little bit, the summary entered into evidence. that summary, i thought, for those who have been critical about the detour, perhaps, the was taken with stormy daniels yesterday, the summary allowed to be entered into evidence that the jury will have in its possession linked to be 34 individual felony counts to the specific invoices, general ledger entries, and checks that were signed by donald trump, issued by the trump organization

in terms of, excuse me, the donald trump revocable trust account and the donald trump personal account. do you think that the distilling of the information made sense for the prosecution to do at this time, coming on the heels of something as big as stormy daniels's testimony? >> absolutely. i think it was important for the overarching narrative, to establish what and why these payments exist in the first place, and use this evidence to lay out the groundwork of here is the connection, here are the connection points between the scandalous testimony you just heard and all of this boring but necessary stuff to show what exactly his crime was. you showed that clip at the beginning of the hour, of trump claiming there was no crime. this is the crime. him falsifying his business documents to cover up these payments, and i feel like the fact that it was necessary for him to cover his tracks is something that the jury understands.

they understand the idea of having to hide the evidence of a crime. this is the prosecution laying out here is how all of this fits together. i think it's really important that they did this at this stage, before michael cohen testifies to really wrap it all up. >> danny, i need you to put your criminal defense attorney had on. i know it's not difficult, because that is likely what you do. i want to put you in this particular spot in terms of the question. last night a former federal prosecutor for politico, he and i got into a back-and-forth about his estimation that he doesn't think the prosecution has even kind of crossed the finish line yet when it comes to being able to approve the felonies in this case. he said this is all great and stellar, but the fact that trump was trying to hide all of this in order to make sure it didn't damage his campaign is not what this case is about. do you agree that the prosecution hasn't actually met the elements of the felonies

that have been charged? >> i think, and i think kathryn and i are in agreement on this one. when it comes to the underlying misdemeanor, the notion that there were records that were falsified, have they shown the transaction? have they shown the records? and have they shown donald trump's knowledge and awareness? that last element, they don't have it quite yet. they certainly have circumstantial evidence. michael cohen will give the direct evidence of that, presumably. he will come in and say donald trump ordered me to do this or some version of that. but the part that aggravates it to a felony, you could say that innocence the government has not even toles what crime they are using as that predicate crime to bump it up to a felony. it might be election law, it might be tax violations. but either way, the argument that trump is trying to make through cross-examination is that there were other reasons why he concealed this alleged crime. and if the jury believes that, or if the jury is just

confused. because taking a step back, this is not like a robbery case. something the jurors can wrap their minds around. this is not only a confusing legal theory, it is a novel legal theory. it arguably has not ever been applied before. certainly falsification of business records, but this application to bump it up to a felony, and anytime you're in novelty land, that might be a hard sell to a jury. >> catherine, i want to stay on this, because i think the management of expectations is always important. especially the management of client expectations is key. i also think we have a responsibility when we do the shows and talk about legal issues to make sure people understand the real machinations of what happens in a courtroom. there were motions to dismiss that were filed by donald trump. they were denied. but at that stage of the motion to dismiss, the legal standard was easier for the prosecution.

now, with the prosecution rests its case, which we anticipate, according to the prosecution, could be at the end of next week. i think the defense is going to move for a judgment of acquittal. the idea that the prosecution has not proven a case of each of the elements of the crime. talk about why that is going to be a different legal analysis that judge merchan is going to have to do once the motion is filed for acquittal? >> well, grand jury, when the judge reviews in new york and i'm sure other states, but in new york the grand jury is sufficient if the people have shown that there was reasonable cause that a felony was committed. period. it is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. trial standard is very different. i cannot remember the last time, at least in manhattan, where a judge granted the defendants motion. but it is a very different standard, and i do agree that some of our lawyers, new york lawyers saying now, which crime they are saying that donald

trump intended to commit or conceal, they have not explicitly presented that evidence to the jury yet. and there's only two more witnesses. >> so, hayes, one of the witnesses we are not going to be hearing from is alan weisel berg. the guy is doing time at rikers for perjury for the second time. but the issue the pop up today outside the presence of the jury was whether or not his severance agreement was going to be admissible. his severance agreement says he gets paid out three different payments but he is not allowed to disparage the trump organization, its directors, et cetera. more specifically, he cannot disparage donald trump. there was a back-and-forth with the prosecution about whether or not it would even make sense to subpoena him from rikers to be able to come over and testify, considering the existence of the severance agreement. your thoughts about the fact that a critical part of the conspiracy, according to the prosecution, the fact that he is not testifying, do you think

the introduction of this severance agreement that actually helped close that loop for the prosecution? >> i think so. i think what they are intending to show us that the reason he can't be here is that we really can't trust what he has to say. and the idea that he is, i believe the daily beast framed it as him being another hush money payment recipient, that he is basically getting this payout in exchange for saying silent about what he knows about the crimes under discussion. i think the fact that neither the prosecution nor defense has subpoenaed him is definitely interesting. the fact that merchan even floated the idea of it and neither side really seems to have put that in the motion at all. i think that the defense is right that there are a lot of reasons why she can't be there, including yes, he is serving in rikers. he is also serving in rikers because he pled guilty to perjury. so considering the fact that michael cullen has also credibility issues for lying

under oath to congress, i can see why the prosecution would headed hesitate to put some notes on the stand who might have more credibility issues. and instead lean on this severance document instead. >> but you know, danny, you and i have had to deal with putting defendants on. and let's look at that lens. i think michael cullen is tantamount to a flip code defendant. he is cooperating with the prosecution. he is going to be subpoenaed to show up. the point is he knows what happened in that room. in those rooms. he was a part of the conspiracy. he is saying this is what donald trump agreed to do with david pecker and me. how do you, if you are michael cohen's lawyer, how do you counsel him going into his testimony on monday knowing that the judge has actually said, as well, to the prosecution, tell mr. cohen and the other witnesses to please not talk about this case outside in public.

>> this is the same advice i would give stormy daniels. just answer the question that is asked. on the outside of the courtroom a lot of people thought stormy daniels never answer your question yes or no, but instead fighting back on every single leading question. while that played well i think too many outside of the courtroom, when a witness does that, when a witness is combative with every single question on cross, they don't help anyone. they don't help themselves, they don't help decide they're trying to help, and if anything they may end up helping the side they are trying to fight. and i think to some degree that could have happened with stormy daniels. jurors don't always like someone who fights back on every question. if stormy daniels did that, i expect michael cohen is going to do it a lot more. i think his attorneys are probably going to tell him i know you think this is your time in the sun, just listen to the question, answer the

question asked. yes or no, it is what it is. you have credibility problems. the prosecution presumably has built up the rest of the case. it is not all on your back. just go in there and answer the questions asked. >> you know, catherine, stormy daniels, to danny's point, tweeted last night after she testified, quote, real men respond to testimony by being sworn in and taking the stand in court. oh, wait, nevermind. putting aside whether or not you support the fact that stormy daniels tweeted that out, we do have to fast-forward this analysis a little bit. because the prosecution rests its case in chief next week, and all eyes turned to the defense. we know, constitutionally, that the defendant has no optimization to do anything. it is the burden of proof. but you and i know it is hard to ignore all the allegations that have been made that are so personal in nature, that it does almost look to donald trump to have to take the stand to explain away a lot of the

things he has been accused of. >> it's just not going to happen. i can't imagine it would. and if it were to happen, then he will be convicted. defendants often are their worst enemies. sometimes you listen to the people's case and they rest, and you are like well, they didn't really prove this so we are not going to do a thing or say a thing and hope the jury does the right thing. so he's going to speak publicly. he cannot trash witnesses or jurors, but what he does outside the courtroom, that's his way of testifying. >> but danny, and the last question is going to you, danny. because you, again, actively practicing criminal defense. you have clients that probably are chomping at the bit to take the stand. the problem you have is this. donald trump from day one has publicly, in the court of public opinion, told the world he is going to testify. it is not i will think about it. it's not if it's on a thursday

maybe i will. it is i'm going to testify, i have nothing to hide, i am going to tell the truth. we have also seen that trump's lawyers have not actually done a fantastic job of saying no to him, because there've been representations made during the course of even this trial that make you scratch your head as a lawyer. does donald trump take the stand, danny? >> let me take out my list of promises donald trump has made that no one even takes seriously anymore. no one will remember he said i was going to testify. i don't know why we are still charlie brown kicking this football. of course he's going to stand outside and say hey, i'm going to testify. then when he doesn't, no one will do anything. in the last two weeks i've taken the underdog that that maybe he will, because i'm the only one saying it. and i will be a legend if he does. and if he doesn't, everyone will forget i said it, trust me. i really don't believe he will end up testifying. psychologically, you will get all kinds of white-collar criminal defendants in cases like this and say i am taking the stand, i am telling the

story. and as the case goes on the kind of get a reality check and they realize that if they get up there they are going to be subjected to the crucible of cross-examination. the rules are slanted against the witness in favor of the attorney, and really nothing good can come of it. but the only reason i still hold out for that underdog is that he is an absolute constitutional right to do it. and who knows what lurks in the mind of donald trump? >> maybe he will have rick scott take the stand for him and testify as his surrogate. my thanks to you guys for getting us started this evening. i appreciate you guys always. when we come back, with the legal bills adding up for donald trump, and his team is looking for ways to trim the fat. inside a leaner campaign. and later, forget ntg and mike johnson, we are going to talk about the biggest feud of the week. maybe someone can explain it to me. the 11th hour just getting underway on this friday night.

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with less than six months until the election, several plug-ins in some key states are concerned about the campaign ground game or lack thereof. that is according to new reporting from the washington post. the campaign is reportedly much leaner than it was four years

ago, with, quote, less real estate, fewer employees, and greater dependence on outside groups. while republican officials and battleground states like arizona and michigan are worried, the trump campaign insists it is all about quality over quantity. joining me now is in bc political analyst and veteran political strategist marilyn congresswoman donna edwards. my thanks to both of you guys for joining me. i'm going to start with you. republicans in these key states are clearly worried. very vocally saying that there are no strategies being shared, and no ground operations to speak of. in response, the trump team saying it is all part of the plan area reminds me of people who say just trust the plan. what do you think, susan, about this strategy for a presidential campaign that could be decided by literally just tens of thousands of voters and just small handful of states? >> when a campaign says we are running a leaner operation and will be better off, it means they don't have the campaign cash to spend. full stop. that is what they are saying.

now, we also know that the rnc is not going to be playing its traditional role, because it is now controlled by donald trump. and that traditional role being doing it get out the vote, working with organizations on the ground, working with senate candidates, congressional candidates, building that groundswell of enthusiasm around the republican candidates. the trump people are saying yeah, we will do it ourselves. well, they are not very good at it. and the other thing is, when they start saying we are going to leave it to outside groups, outside groups are meant to, they are out there to basically bash the opponent. you need your own people to run ground operations. if they are relying on the outside groups, they have already lost. >> donna, this kind of has a keystone cops kind of energy, kos, for example, earlier this week trump's 18-year-old son, baron trump, who flies below

the radar when it comes to public exposure. he was named an rnc delegate for the state of order, but today his mother, melania, came out and said that baron is quote declining to be a delegate because of prior commitments. let's put inside baron and melania. but what does it tell you when it comes to competency to run the rnc, organizational detail that there is always this constant instinct for the trump family or for trump to push his family members into official positions within the party. let me be clear, i'm not crying over this. but i do find it to be fascinating that they with organization and experience. >> this was a team that didn't know how to run a campaign in 2016. they didn't know what they were doing in 2020, and they still know what they are doing in 2024. it is complete chaos. and look, i have been a candidate, i have been on the ballot, and i have never wanted to be part of a campaign that had to go lien. because that meant to me that i didn't have enough money to run the campaign.

so i think you see this idea that they are not going to open campaign offices and they are going to do this all by volunteers. even if you have volunteers, you got to have somebody the coordinates them and get them out in the field, that tells them what to do and organizes them. and the trump team just doesn't seem to have any of that. in contrast with biden, who last week announced that they are opening up 500 offices around the country, they are staffing up in the key states, they are starting to do real field operations and getting their candidates out in the field. there is one team that is running a campaign and another team that well, i'm not really sure what to call it. >> susan, when you are answering my first question to you you talked about outside groups and what their purpose is. as donna just noted, president biden has the cash in the coffers to be able to really advance his campaign, and the democrats are going to have this huge cash advantage in the

race. i wanted to ask you about this new guidance that allows outside groups to raise and spend money from wealthy donors without limits. it sounds to me it is kind of an end run around any of your typical campaign contribution limits. >> yeah, but those runs have always existed in different ways. it is just now which groups can use that unlimited money, and they still can't technically coordinate. there is just allowed to be a crossover in fundraising. not to get to in the weeds, there always has been before. however, again, the trump folks want that cash. they don't want outside groups, necessarily, doing their work. they want to get their money in hand because they need to pay a lot of legal bills. so i think there's a lot of doubletalk coming out of the trump campaign because they know they are in trouble on the ground. >> you know, donna, when you hear the word leaner, i think that is also another way of saying cash-strapped. one of the ways trump could

raise money is campaigning and doing more rallies versus just talking pieces of his suit that he is currently doing with nft cards. but tomorrow donald trump is holding his first campaign event in about a week. it is a rally in new jersey, and trump could be holding more campaign events on his days off. remember, he doesn't have court on wednesdays, but he is not doing it. but donna, what is your opinion, the rationale behind the decision of trump sitting out the opportunity to do more rallies or more campaign events? >> well, it's interesting because one of the other things that has happened in the intervening years since 2016 is that these rallies are not as effective and they are very expensive to put on. so on the one hand, the campaign doesn't have a lot of money to put on rallies, and on the other hand, they don't really seem to have the mechanisms in place or the donor base and placed in order to raise money. so i think it's going to be really hard, even if donald trump decides to get out there on the days he has, wednesday

or the weekend, i think it still makes it really hard for them to raise money, because they have been scrapped all along. and the biden campaign is just chugging along. >> susan, this year's d&c is going to be this summer in chicago. there are a lot of democrats worried already that the gaza protest movement can make this convention look like the one we saw in chicago in 68, filled with a lot of protests and demonstrators disrupting the proceedings. and as tenneco points out, chicago's new mayor is firmly on the side of the protesters. susan, what a hybrid format that cuts down on live speaking , kind of extemporaneous kind of opportunities, that usually happen at these conventions, do you think that actually would help, these hybrids would help to minimize the disruptions?

and would actually be the right move? >> i don't think it would help, because at the end of the day, the protesters are going to be out there protesting. and it could be a whole host of issues. and right now the democrats should be extremely concerned, because they are in a city where the mayor really is on the side of the protester and thinks it is great that they are going to be out there in force. whereas, when we look at what happened in new york city back in 2004 with the republican national convention, the city had a lot of blowback because of the way they treated the protesters. when you have a lot of people gathered and you have every media outlet in the world and there is disruption, it's never a good look. with the democrats it is also important for them to project that they are not afraid of the protesters at all. they can go forward with their program. frankly i think it is all too

long, so they could do a lot more not during airtime. >> so it is not just cutting the fat, would recommend trimming the programming, as well. thank you to the both of you for being here this evening. and when we come back, the biden administration is calling out israel over the war in gaza. there is a new report that came out today on israel's tactics, and we are going to get into that when the 11th hour continues. continues. of dawn. watch it make soap scum here... disappear... and sprays can leave grime like that ultra foamy melts it on contact. magic. (ella) fashion moves fast. setting trends is our business. we need to scale with customer demand... in real time. (jen) so we partner with verizon. their solution for us? a private 5g network. (ella) we now get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility.

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the biden administration is sharing new concerns about israel's war in gaza. today the state department said that there was reasonable evidence israel has violated international humanitarian law, but also say that israel had not violated u.s. weapons agreements. earlier this week president biden said that he would stop sending certain weapons to israel if it launches a major invasion of rafah, adding new strain to the decades long relationship between biden and israel's minister, benjamin netanyahu. for more i want to welcome celebrated author and presidential historian michael. it is always a privilege to have you spend some time with us. thank you. let's start kind of with the general premise, to talk about the existing u.s. israeli relation. it is 76 years old and counting, but the tension seems to be palpable and rising. can you lend our viewers summit

perspective about this relationship? >> short, yes. that is very much in keeping with the history of this relationship. everyone remembers this as israel and the united states always getting along and being close, joined at the hip, and that has sometimes been true, but a lot of times not. after every major war, 1948, 1956, 1973, 1982, the united states and israel have oftentimes disagreed. there are periods of tension. the united states is a stakeholder here, and a wise israeli prime minister would listen carefully to what an american president says. >> so, president biden has been called out for months by critics of the war, and now he is under fire from supporters of israel's efforts. but take a quick listen to how senator bernie sanders defended president biden. >> one of my republican colleagues said, quote, joe

biden objectively favors a hamas victory over israel. it is just that simple. end of quote. which sounds rather amusing, given the fact that for the last 40 years there has probably been nobody here in washington, d.c. more strongly supportive of israel then joe biden as a senator and a president. >> i mean, michael, i get it. biden is kind of if he does, if he doesn't. but he does have a credible record, and a long one, of public service. does that work in his favor here when it comes to his relations with israel and even netanyahu? >> what i think bernie sanders is absolutely right about, and anyone who criticizes biden for not having enough sensitivity about the right of the jewish people in israel to exist just doesn't know what they are talking about.

you heard that great speech that he gave this week at the holocaust museum, on the rising danger of anti-semitism in the united states. he mentioned someone who was a close friend of his, and also close friend of mine, congressman tom lantos, now no longer with us. he was the only member of congress who had ever survived the holocaust and came here, not elected from san mateo, california. one of the first things i heard about joe biden from him decades ago was, he said, of all the people who are not jewish who i know, the one who understands the plight of the jewish people in history and the importance of israel more than anyone else he said was joe biden. >> so the republicans, of course, have latched onto the campus protests, blaming them on president biden. but i wanted to ask you, michael, historically, how have protest movements like the ones

we are witnessing now, but also historically, how have they generally impacted presidential races? >> peaceful protest, civil rights, vietnam, other causes have been essential to our history and progress. and making us a better society. but i think on the trump side there is a little bit of an obsession with 1968. richard nixon was running. george wallace was running from the south. they both said the cities are not safe. the campuses are run by people who are out of control and radical. plus vice president humphrey was the democratic candidate that year, as part of a johnson administration that has lost control on the world. can't handle the work in vietnam. some of the rhetoric you hear from the trump advisers would suggest that they are hoping and maybe making an effort to exacerbate the danger that in 2024 there will be danger in the city, on the streets in the

cities, lack of law and order, and these protests will go on especially at a democratic convention in chicago, where the antiwar vietnam protesters of 1968 got into this bloody confrontation with police. they should never hope for that, but americans should be prepared, because there is a possibility that that could be part of the campaign strategy. >> you know, michael, i'm going to ask you this question. it might be a little bit broad, but i know if there's anybody who could narrow the answer is going to be you. we ask ourselves often when we are looking at what is happening over in israel and gaza with hamas, we see the death. we see the destruction. but these geopolitical conflicts and crises are nothing new. is there something that is unique about this kind of time that we are in that just seems to exacerbate it so much more? we ask, what is being on the

right side of history on something like this? >> compared to 30 years ago, we were all lucky, i'm sure you can barely remember the 1990s but i remember it well. bill clinton was president. there was one superpower in the world, that was the united states. you didn't have problems like this because there was no one who could compete with us. now there are all sorts of powers who not only want to be as powerful as we are or potentially even more, like china, but at the same time, foreign countries know that they can change an american election by making trouble in the world. for instance, in 1980 when the russians entered afghanistan and the iranians took hostages from the united states embassy in tehran, they made jimmy carter look very weak and made it very possible for him to be defeated by ronald reagan, as he was. so all i am saying is americans have to prepare themselves for this danger and possibility and not get too rattled, and do not let other countries and other

forces elect our presidents. >> including those that are internally threatening american democracy by trying to have a second run at the oval office, i.e. donald trump. michael, thank you, as always. like i said, i asked you a big question but you definitely brought us home. i appreciate you, as always. >> thank you so much. >> coming up next, we are going to take a step back. the topics that were all over our collective social media feeds this week. when the 11th hour continues. gardening. some of us go for the dramatic. how didn't i know wayfair had vanities in tile? [ gasps ] this. wow! do you have any ottomans without legs. sure. you'll flip for the poof cart. in the wayborhood, there's a place for all of us. ♪ wayfair. every style. every home. ♪

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>> wanted to take his own reported? >> she comes to my work, my house. she sends me emails all the time. soon very threatening towards you? >> i wouldn't say that is particularly threatening. >> let's head of the week and breaking down the pop culture stories that everyone is talking about. there is the controversy around netflix's hit show, baby reindeer. the feud between two of hip- hop's biggest stars, drake and kendrick lamar. and apple's new upsetting ipad pro added that destroys beloved items like books and musical insurance. here to discuss his media analyst eric baggins, also an adjunct professor at duke

university. let's start with baby reindeer, one of the top shows on netflix right now about a woman stalking, and stalking is almost an understatement, a struggling comedian. now the woman claiming to be who the stalker character is based on is going public. she actually sat down for an interview with piers morgan. she says she is going to sue. what is going on with this lady in this? >> every step this story takes a gets more more, get it. the first irony is that the piece itself, the tv show itself is a statement about the damaging effects of stalking and how terrible it can be to be the victim of such a thing. and it inspired all these people to go out and stalk this woman, until they figured out who she was. and, you know, the daily mail did an interview with another woman who claims to have been a stalking victim of the real- life woman. this woman, named fiona harvey, wound up talking to piers morgan

, and after she did the interview she said she felt that morgan had manipulated her. and my sense was, you're not going to get to the bottom of a story as complex as this with a simple sitdown interview in a tv studio. and piers morgan had to know that. so the interview with her felt very exploitative when you watch it, and did not really reveal a whole lot. and the woman didn't make a great case that the show had a lot of inaccuracies about her, other than her protestations. so this is a very tangled and complex situation, because the show says it is based on a true story, and the creator and star of the show has tried to keep people from trying to figure out who the characters are based on, because there are other characters who do things like commit sexual assaults, and some people have been accused of being the people that those characters are based on. and the guy had to come out and

say no, you have the wrong people. so it is best for fans of the show to stop trying to figure out who the person is and sort of maybe take the message of the show to heart a little bit more. >> yeah, stop sleuthing. so let's switch gears, and you have to help me figure this out. i don't know what this is about. drake and kendrick lamar. i did try to learn through tiktok, and trust me, that didn't work. these are arguably two of the biggest entertainers in the world. they are interviewed, and things are escalating to say something about it. here is just a taste of some of the jobs that have been thrown, take a quick listen, eric. >> sorry, i was getting into the music, but i don't understand what this is about. there is this beef, but where's

the beef and what is the beef? >> okay, so these two artists have had a long simmering tension between themselves for years. and then there was a sense that kendrick lamar did a guest appearance on an album a few months ago that also featured a couple of rappers who used to collaborate with drake and said some things that were taken as insults to drake. so then drake decided to release the track where he kind of spoke up for himself, and the two artists have been sort of dropping different tracks. so i saw one person try to say that this is sort of like prince and michael jackson sort of going at it, but to me it felt more like justin timberlake and maybe elvis costello going at it. basically you have a wrapper, and drake, who is very

commercially successful, but also gets criticized for being shallow and maybe not being authentic. and then you have someone like kendrick lamar who has won a pulitzer and is considered critically a much better wrapper. but has not been commercially as successful as drake. so the two of them have been fighting. they produced this music, but it is also sort of exposed this trend in black pop culture where we have artists tearing each other down and creating this almost schoolyard fight mentality where people gather around to kind of watch the battle. and it is not just these two artists, i am thinking about when kat williams went on the club shea shea podcast and set all these insulting things about other black comets. and these comics are to go on other podcasts and defend themselves, talk about it, or maybe insult him back. and then you have fans wondering, you know, are all these artists too preoccupied with tearing each other down to actually build up the culture and build out the art? that is the one thing that it kind of troubles me a little bit

about seeing this. but for anyone who says that black twitter might be dead because elon musk has taken over twitter and changed it, all you have to do is look at social media when these distracts were dropping. and folks were on it. there were so many means, so much commentary. people are really interested. >> eric, we have to go, but i'm going to say two things. this is definitely not east coast west coast, and it's not tupac. thank you so much for being here, and we will be right back. back. a lot of them. and you don't drive like... whoa. i don't want my child being raised by a robot! other drivers are not you. yes, thank you so much to all 50 of my subscribers. nope, definitely not you. save with drivewise and get a rate based on you. you're in good hands with allstate.

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that does it for us tonight. be sure to tune into the katie phang show tomorrow at 12:00 eastern. pete buttigieg joins me to talk about projects affected by red lining and imminent domain. i want to wish you a good night on that note. donald trump's former fixer michael cohen will testify against his former boss on