gb news. away. >> good morning. welcome to the camilla tominey show on this beautiful sunday morning. great to have your company as ever. another week in westminster, another defection from the tory party to labour right wing conservative mp natalie. natalie elphicke's decision to cross the floor of the commons has sparked controversy, and i'll be getting the reaction from both sides of the reaction from both sides of the house. i'll be speaking to deputy foreign secretary andrew mitchell about the government's rwanda plan, the war in gaza and whether rishi sunak can win back tory voters . i'll be joined by tory voters. i'll be joined by labour's jonathan ashworth, the shadow paymaster general, to discuss keir starmer's plan to

stop the boats. will they really scrap the rwanda plan? even if it starts working? i'll also be getting the mood of tory backbenchers with one mp who is standing down at this election, former environment secretary george eustice and one mp who is fighting his seat. former minister sir conor burns and author will hutton will join me to discuss his new book, this time no mistakes how to remake britain. don't go anywhere because once again, we've got a fun packed 90 minutes of politics coming right up. now to go through the papers this morning. i'm delighted to be joined by nigel nelson, senior political commentator @gbnews news. nigel, lovely to see you. well natalie elphick's defection, it goes on. it goes on and on. it's all over the front page of the mail on

sunday. turncoat mp asks minister to pull strings for husband's sex abuse trial. tell me about this, because it seems as if she's reached out to the former justice secretary, robert formerjustice secretary, robert buckland, after her. we think ex—husband charlie elphicke was convicted of sexually assaulting two women. and what did she want buckland to do? >> well, i mean, this is the allegation that's both in the mail on sunday, as you said, and the sunday times. what you wanted to do was to interfere in the case. she didn't much like the case. she didn't much like the judge for a start. the other thing that she particularly objected to was the was that the case was coming up directly after covid, and she wanted it to be moved to a lower profile court to try and dampen down, dampen down the interest in it, robert buckland sent her away with a flea in her ear. said it would be totally inappropriate for him to get involved in the, in the judiciary , which is in the judiciary, which is absolutely right now, of course, we do know that natalie elphicke was suspended from the commons

for a day, and that was for interfering again . this time it interfering again. this time it was to try to stop character references provided by other mps being made public. but either way, she should have known better. you don't interfere with the with the judicial process. >> she's apologised , hasn't she? >> she's apologised, hasn't she? after jess phillips and others called her out in the week following the defection for what they accused her of . which was they accused her of. which was victim blaming, she sort of came out with statements after her ex—husband was convicted, having a go at the victims and then she said she regretted that. but we've got another number of problems with this defection. you know, she's a right wing tory who's been hugely critical of labour. she's, according to these newspaper hours, sort of being seen to be trying to cover up her ex—husband's trial and conviction . she tried to cover conviction. she tried to cover up that she was a character witness, along with other mps, i mean, hasn't this been a decision by keir starmer that's badly backfired? nigel i don't

think it's badly backfired. i think it's badly backfired. i think that has it backfired? well, well, it's a profit and loss, isn't it , so well, well, it's a profit and loss, isn't it, so on the on the losing side. yes. it's upset a number of labour mps and especially women labour mps who don't like the way that, natalie elphicke defended her husband while he was being , being while he was being, being convicted of sex abuse , on the convicted of sex abuse, on the plus side, there are certain things where she does go along with labour values that she is a housing finance expert. she's talked about that freezing private rents to help with the cost of living. she's talked about more houses need to be built. she's talked about no fault of no fault evictions should be banned. so that kind of goes with the labour side. if i was drawing up a list of tory mps who might defect, she wouldn't have been on it. she is a right winger , and so it came a right winger, and so it came as a complete surprise to all of us when we heard about it. >> i suspect that she's been

promised something, because the other intriguing thing about this story is that she isn't standing for re—election at the next general election. we've already got a labour candidate for dover and deal. therefore she's just switching for this period. we understand she's unimpressed with the government on a number of different levels . on a number of different levels. there's some talk in the observer this morning that she was annoyed that she didn't get offered a junior ministerial post by rishi sunak. all of these could be reasons, but at these could be reasons, but at the same time it's . just odd to the same time it's. just odd to see her at the heart of labour. she doesn't really belong there. it looks cynical and it therefore looks as if labour is perhaps promised her something for her switching loyalty . could for her switching loyalty. could she be in line for a peerage? perhaps? >> labour? say not. they say that was never dangled there before. now they have said that before. now they have said that before . they also said it said before. they also said it said it about dan poulter, who was the previous defector . yes. that the previous defector. yes. that peerages didn't come up. i don't think we'll know the answer to that one until keir starmer is prime minister and he's in a position to hand the peerages

out. >> okay. you talked about other defections. if there is a list going , the sun is reporting the going, the sun is reporting the sun on sunday that there are three tories in kie defection talks . i three tories in kie defection talks. i mean, we can't three tories in kie defection talks . i mean, we can't really talks. i mean, we can't really speculate as to who they might be, but do you think there will be, but do you think there will be more defections? >> yes, i do actually. and i think that they'll probably come from the one nation group of tory mps . the question for the tory mps. the question for the one nation group is there is a battle going on for the heart and soul of the conservative party you've got right wingers on one side trying to drag it over to the right, that is not popular with the one nation group of moderates. if . group of moderates. if. they can actually stay put and influence that debate, i think they'll stay put if they decide, look, the game is up. frankly, we're going to lose the election and lose it badly. i can see a few a few of those defecting. i mean, i've had conversations myself with a few people and not about

defection, but about the labour party and their views of the labour party party and the way keir starmer has changed it. so that's been interesting to see that's been interesting to see that they where once they'd have dismissed the labour party out of hand under jeremy corbyn, now of hand underjeremy corbyn, now they don't. >> now they're entertaining it . >> now they're entertaining it. shall we move on to europol outlets? i know you love your eurovision, nigel. did you watch it from start to finish last night? >> i did watch it from start to finish. >> really? i avoided it like the plague. i've never really got into it. >> it's. it's a wonderful piece of silliness. and that's why it's so entertaining. >> i probably silliness is welcome, although there was nothing particularly silly about the protests outside, or indeed, the protests outside, or indeed, the way that the israeli candidate was made to feel on stage with all of the booing. >> yeah, i mean, i found most of the booing was was reserved for the, the european broadcast union , which organises, union, which organises, organises eurovision and that was because they allowed israel in in . the first place, now i in in. the first place, now i obviously eden golan and the singer has nothing to do with

what's going on. but back home, and on the basis of that, i was pleased to see her able to perform and also the public vote afterwards. yeah, the public vote. >> i think the judges put her at 12 and thanks to the public vote, she got up to fifth. >> yes, exactly. >> yes, exactly. >> my argument would be she's a 20 year old girl. she's there to perform. she's got the right to be proud of her own nation. absolutely. and i don't know why she did feel that intimidated. i'd also beg the question of what on earth greta thunberg was doing there. is this got something to do with climate change? i mean , i appreciate the change? i mean, i appreciate the eco warriors say that everything's to do with climate change. this cup of tea, your glasses, this remote control . glasses, this remote control. but i'm not sure if eurovision is no. >> and i felt much the same way about that. that as well. i don't think eurovision is. i mean, the whole thing about eurovision is to try and take politics out of it, but the big complaint is a question of if they treat everybody equally . they treat everybody equally. vie so russia was then thrown out of eurovision , two years out of eurovision, two years ago, and that was because of invading ukraine. now we have israel in gaza, and the question there is, is there an

equivalence? now what the ebu say is, no, there's not. they're saying that the reason that russia was expelled was because their state broadcaster was was broadcasting propaganda. and that goes against their rules on free speech. yes. there arguing that israel is not doing the same thing. i'm sure there'll be other people who are saying would would say completely differently . differently. >> time is of the essence. so let's move on to this story about george galloway, which is in the sunday times. galloway they allege, lied to millions onune they allege, lied to millions online that mrs. zelenskyy blew $1 million on jewellery and this is a story really about whether he is being a, quote, useful idiot for russia in trying to smear mrs. zelenskyy. but on a wider level, i mean, the subdeck of this headline is suggesting that he hasn't been seen much in the constituency of rochdale since he got elected . how much since he got elected. how much of a threat is galloway to the labour party? do you think you

might keep rochdale the general election beyond that? >> i don't think he's a threat at all, we, even these people who want to be signed up to the workers party or indeed the fact that he's rabble rousing a lot of pro—palestinian candidates . of pro—palestinian candidates. >> yes. >> yes. >> even then, i mean, his his best signing so far was the england cricket star monty panesan england cricket star monty panesar. and he backed out and he backed out. after seven days, he backed out. after seven days, he decided the workers party wasn't for him, in fact. in fact, it doesn't look like politics is actually for him. so that was a big signing , george that was a big signing, george galloway made a lot of that, put him on a lot of , tv interviews, him on a lot of, tv interviews, and now he's moved away . so at and now he's moved away. so at the end of it all, it's a tiny party. george galloway might keep his seat, his own seat . the keep his seat, his own seat. the idea of other people getting seats, i think is unlikely. okay, let's have a very quick word about the royals. >> okay? we've got the sussexes in nigeria. they're sort of putting on their own royal tour, which is interesting. i wouldn't mind your reaction to this story, nigel king calls up the b team, and this is the suggestion in the mail on sunday that princess beatrice, who's the eldest daughter of the duke and

duchess of york, might be called up to support the king in some of his duties. she isn't a working royal, but in the absence of the prince of wales, might she be an asset to the team? nigel? >> yes, i think so. and what's just happened over at the palace is they've had a workload review to see what charles does and what he doesn't do. he's got a thousand royal patronages. they're looking at about, trying to reduce that number not just with his cancer. he is bear in mind 75. so the idea is draft in some of the younger royals, b maybe even her sister eugenie and get them to help him out. >> and that's okay. i mean, we appreciate the duke of york. nobody necessarily wants to revive his royal career, but the daughters, they have a good reputation, i think. yeah, they do like them. >> and i don't think the sins of the father can be can be visited on the daughters. quite right. >> nigel nelson, thank you very much indeed for your wisdom and experience this morning. lovely to see you. coming up next, former secretary of state for the environment george eustice is going to be joining me in the studio. don't go anywhere

welcome back to gb news. you're watching the camilla tominey show. george eustice, the mp for camborne and redruth. and also the former environment secretary, joins me in the studio now. thank you for coming in, george. lovely to see you. should we start with natalie elphicke ? because if you want elphicke? because if you want to. >> yes. >> yes. >> why are you reluctant to. i mean, the word weird springs to mind . that was so strange on mind. that was so strange on wednesday. what did you make of it all, yeah. well, she is quite an erratic, you know, individual , erratic politician. so it is an unusual. >> do you mean by that? what >> do you mean by that? what >> i think she's a bit, a bit unpredictable. >> she's. it's never quite clear to work out where she's been on the political spectrum or what? what she wants, i have to say, i kind of rather assume that she was going to carry on and stand

again and. and had assumed that the seat in dover would she could stand as a labour candidate. and i don't know whether i mean, she didn't announce she was going. i think, when she first said it. that came a few hours later, and i sort of wonder whether she assumed it would come her way. but i don't know. i mean, you know, we can only obviously look at is she would you categorise her as a loss to the conservative party? >> how would you categorise it? >> how would you categorise it? >> well, look, i think she's, she's been a difficult, she's been an outlier within the conservative party. so i don't quite know how she fits within the labour party, to be honest. and i think the real, you know, the real thing here. and we've seen, obviously, further stories coming out that, this has backfired a bit on keir starmer. and i think the lesson for him is it's not just about doing something clever for pmqs and getting a defector to sit behind you on the benches for that one off event. you do have to think a bit about these sorts of decisions and the message you're trying to convey as a party, and people want to see that there's an opposition leader who looks like he's a prime minister in waiting, thinking about the serious things not, you know, flitting around, trying to find

a defector to get some tactical gain . and i think that's it's gain. and i think that's it's backfired on him. and i suspect that the shadow cabinet will be saying to keir starmer, never again do something like this without consulting us first. and getting our agreement for it. >> i mean, nigel nelson suggesting that there may be more defections on the cards that one nation tories are looking at labour and thinking, well, they're much improved since the corbyn days . maybe we since the corbyn days. maybe we should entertain this because we want to retain our seats . want to retain our seats. >> well, i think that's quite a dishonourable way to behave and my view on defectors i'm, i probably similar to, to david cameron on this. i think everyone when you go into politics, you choose a party that's the closest to your own views , and everyone in politics views, and everyone in politics will have some issues where they differ from the mainstream view in their own party, whether they're labour or conservative. but under our system, you pick a party that's closest to your views. and my view is you should stick with them . and look, as stick with them. and look, as a backbenchen stick with them. and look, as a backbencher, if there are things the government's doing that you disagree with, well then you are free to vote the other way and

to vote with the opposition on certain bits of legislation. but i think defections are it's quite a dishonourable way to behave , in my view. i think it's behave, in my view. i think it's quite craven. i think it says more about the individual who defects than it does about the party that they're defecting from, it wasn't a great week last week because as well as the defection, we then had nadhim zahawi, who's a very experienced former cabinet minister deciding that he's going to stand down at the next general election . that the next general election. that takes a number of tories who are going to stand to down 64. you're one of those number, does that show a lack of faith in government? your decision, his decision. dominic raab's and others to not stand again? >> no, it doesn't. >> no, it doesn't. >> and i think people can, read too much into this. if you look at 2019, a lot of people stood down there. and in fact, you can look at any general election down the ages 2010 election, lots of people stood down, lots of labour mps stood down. at that point. >> it doesn't show much confidence in rishi sunak, though. >> i think it's more the case

that you know, the days of somebody becoming an mp and then wanting to stay there right to the end and right through retirement. i think people there's changed. people's aspirations have changed. in my in my case, i'll be 53 by the time the next election. >> a young whippersnapper. >> a young whippersnapper. >> well, exactly. >> well, exactly. >> but young enough to do something else. and i've always been someone in life. when i was david cameron's press secretary, but decided to close the chapter on that and move on to become an mp. i've always been someone in life who believes he shouldn't unger life who believes he shouldn't linger on the final page of the chapter, you should, you know, proactively close that chapter and move to on the next chapter in life. and that's what i'm doing. i think it's what many of my colleagues are doing as well. >> and it happened as your colleagues. >> also just putting a finger in there and thinking to themselves, i'm probably going to lose my seat. i don't want to be in opposition for years. therefore, i'm getting out now and it does seem a little bit like people are jumping off a sinking ship. >> well, i don't really agree because i think they'll have different, different mps. will have different reasons. some will want more time with their family, some will want a change

of career like me. some will be close to retirement and feel that it's time to step down. they all have different reasons. they all have different reasons. the key thing is this is not a new phenomenon. so more mps stood down in 2019 after that dreadful, deadlock that we had over brexit. yes, a very large number of mps stood down in 2010. this is often the way that it goes. people do, you know, ten, 15, 20 years sometimes in parliament and then they want a change. so you do get elections where people decide to stand down and you sometimes get more standing down in some elections than others. but every election has a lot of mps who, consciously themselves decide that they want a change and step down. >> just before we go on to talk about sort of the tories electoral hopes, you mentioned david cameron there. obviously you know him very well. lots of people are saying that he's positioning himself to return as leader of the conservative party at some point. he's recording these very slick videos at the foreign office, and he's almost acting like pm overseas . do you acting like pm overseas. do you agree with that analysis, i would be surprised if david cameron wanted to come back and, you know, lead the conservative

party. he's done that before. now my reading is it and i know david cameron obviously quite well, having been his press secretary. he's actually a he's a very public spirited person. and i think he would have felt looking around the world, that there are all sorts of massive global challenges . his the war global challenges. his the war in ukraine, the situation in gaza and you know, when he had the call from rishi sunak to say, would you come and help us on this and be foreign secretary? it's really not complicated . david cameron just complicated. david cameron just would have thought i've, i've had the call. i've been asked and i've got a duty to do this for my country. if people think i've got something to ask something to, to offer, then i should do that. and i think that's all it was, really. and i'm delighted that he's back, because i think he's brought some gravitas to our foreign policy position. i think he's carefully recalibrated our stance on israel and gaza. it's very difficult. but i think early on there was a danger that the government weren't quite getting that right. they were. you know, a bit too much on israel's side and not enough recognising the illegal settlements and some of the things that israel had got

wrong. and i think david cameron's carefully recalibrated that actually, in a good way. so i'm delighted that he's back. i think he's throwing himself at it with an immense amount of energy. but i would be surprised if he wanted to return to being leader. >> i know you're also quite close to boris johnson. would you be surprised if he wanted to return as leader ? return as leader? >> i would actually, yes, and i think yes, i think it's i think we're overblowing this in the press that this idea of these cincinnatus style comebacks, i think it doesn't happen very often in our system. look, in an american presidential system, you've almost got these political dynasties and, you know, the people can come back and the, the wife or the son of and the, the wife or the son of a president actually ends up being president himself. ten, 20 years later, a bit like the bush or the clintons, for instance, under our system, it tends not to happen. it's a very contested system. and in some ways more meritocratic in that a with anyone can become prime minister, whether they've got financial means or not. >> the sense that he's obviously hinted at it, and also this desire to sort of appear churchillian. >> obviously, winston churchill had a second term, you know, after he'd had a break from

politics and this suggestion he might do the same thing. but you don't think that's on the cards? >> we'll see. i think it's unlikely. if i'm honest. i think under our system you you have your shot at it. it's exhausting while you do it. you know, in both boris and david's case, they they did it for three years and six years, respectively. and they probably feel they've they've done that bit. >> but do you think the tories would be in a better place right now if boris johnson was still at the helm? i mean, the polling is looking dire. you've got big beasts jumping ship, you've got mps defecting and maybe more to follow. rishi sunak says his plan is working. it doesn't seem to be working because it's not moving the dial, is it? well i think the challenge here is and you know, it was very difficult in those final months with boris johnson because, you know, he had lost the confidence of the conservative party with all of those rows about parties and the trouble is, a prime minister can't really carry on once they've lost the confidence of their own party, in essence. >> and that's that's what had happened.soi >> and that's that's what had happened. so i remained loyal to bofis happened. so i remained loyal to boris johnson to the end. i know partly for the reason that under our system, it's actually not

easy to change party leader and change prime minister when you're in government, it's quite a risky thing to do. it's not an easy manoeuvre to do. and we've tried to do that now several times, you know, with david cameron, when we had theresa may and then we had, you know, boris johnson and then of course, liz truss , briefly, it's very truss, briefly, it's very difficult. and i think the more chopping and changing we've done, the more the public have also created a settled view that they're not sure that they want to give us another go. >> and i appreciate what you're saying there, because i think there has been far too much chopping and changing. however if the tories lose the next general election, rishi sunak's not going to stay at the helm, is he? >> well, unlikely. but i mean, when prime ministers lose elections, they do. you know, in this day and age they tend to step down. >> but look my view on rishi got any skin in the game post. whenever the election is okay you're going to go off and do something else. so tell me genuinely, who would you like to see run the conservative party after rishi sunak? who would be your pick , i know there isn't your pick, i know there isn't a vacancy now, but just tell me.

>> well, there's not a vacancy and we don't also know who will be around after the election and who might be left from the wreckage. >> i'm going to, you know, avoid the temptation to get into that, mainly, george. well, for two reasons. one is, i won't be an mp at that point anyway, because i'm standing down. i won't be someone who you think, actually, they could do a good job. >> you've been an mp for a long time now. you know these people. you see them in the tea room. penny. pretty suella tugendhat robert jenrick. >> well, my view at the moment is i support rishi sunak in this and i want to explain why i do want to, you know, fun. george, honestly, the truth is, and it comes back to these various defections. you know, rishi sunak does not deserve having these defections. he is absolutely working his socks off. he's doing it against an incredibly difficult backdrop. he's he's inherited a very difficult set of circumstances, both internationally and with the economy as well. >> i know, but he was the chancellor. >> he's worked very hard, his own legacy. yes, but look what he's inherited, his own legacy of spending billions on furlough and beyond. >> well, but he's also now got inflation back under control.

that's coming down. the economy's back in growth i think he's been at this juncture what we needed a steady hand on the tiller to basically stabilise the economy, which is so important to get that back in shape. i think he's done that. and i think the party has got to really just get behind him and show loyalty and go into this election and noises off and people thinking it looks clever for them to defect. we just need to, have a reality check and actually get behind the work. rishi sunak's doing okay. he's working his socks off to get this party re—elected. >> we know he's working hard. >> we know he's working hard. >> we know he's working hard. >> we actually we owe it to him to get behind him and support him in this are fast running out of time. >> george, i just wanted to ask you really quickly, really quick answer. water pollution, the state of the thames, the state of our rivers. as a former environment secretary, in a nutshell, should water companies be doing more about this? i mean , our audience is exasperated, angry and frustrated about this issue. >> well, if you look at the thames, the big decision to solve that problem was actually taken ten years ago when i was in the department, and it's the thames tideway tunnel. it's a

massive piece of infrastructure about to open . yes. and so long about to open. yes. and so long before people were talking about water pollution in the news, defra was on the case. >> and do you have confidence that will help clean up? >> absolutely. it's a huge infrastructure project and it's going to when you get flash rainfall, it's going to

welcome back. so much more to come in the next hour , i'll be come in the next hour, i'll be joined by labour's resident attack dog, jonathan ashworth and david cameron's right hand man, andrew mitchell. but first, here's the news with tatiana sanchez. here's the news with tatiana sanchez . camila, thank you very sanchez. camila, thank you very much. >> the top stories from the gb news room at 10:00 claims a british israeli hostage has died in gaza, are being urgently investigated by the foreign office. hamas says nadav popplewell, who was kidnapped .

popplewell, who was kidnapped. dufing popplewell, who was kidnapped. during the october attack in israel, was injured during an airstrike a month ago. the government says it's seeking more information after the terrorist group made the claim. in a video , undated footage of in a video, undated footage of the 51 year old with a black eye confirming his name was also published. the foreign office says it's working with partners to secure the release of all hostages, including british nationals . tory defector natalie nationals. tory defector natalie elphicke denies she lobbied the justice secretary over her then husband's sex offences trial. sir robert buckland claims the mp, who crossed the floor to laboun mp, who crossed the floor to labour, requested the case to be moved to a lower profile court. speaking to the sunday times, he says she was told the request was completely inappropriate. her spokesperson refuted the accusation , describing it as accusation, describing it as nonsense. in the daily mail, mrs. elphicke ended the marriage when her husband was convicted of sexually assaulting two women and jailed for two years. in other news, parents of children

older than nine months can now apply for funded childcare starting from september this yeah starting from september this year. applications is open today for those whose children reach that age by august 31st. it is the second step of the government's expanded childcare offer for working families of younger children in england. parents of two year olds have been able to access 15 hours of funded childcare since last month . the full rollout will see month. the full rollout will see support increase to 30 hours a week by september next year. the department for health says. all local authorities have reported they're currently meeting the demand from parents for childcare places . switzerland childcare places. switzerland has won eurovision following a contest mired in protests hundred and 25 the winner, the champion of the eurovision nemo, the first non—binary performer to take the trophy, is the first swiss act to win it since celine dion took the prize in 1988, but the contest was overshadowed

with pro—palestinian protesters who'd gathered outside the arena before and during contesting israel's participation. while israel's participation. while israel's eden golan finished in fifth place, including getting 12 points from the uk's public vote. there was some booing when she performed a more audible booing when israel handed out their scores . and thunderstorms their scores. and thunderstorms could bring britain's warm spell to a dramatic end this afternoon. yesterday was confirmed as the hottest day of the year so far. temperatures are forecast to hit 25 degrees again today in parts of southern and central england, but the forecast isn't all sunshine in western areas of england, wales and scotland and northern ireland. a met office yellow alert for thunderstorms with heavy showers is set to come into force from midday on. and for the latest stories, you can sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen, or go to gb news. carmelites. now back to .

camilla. >> thanks, tatiana. welcome back to the camilla tominey show . to the camilla tominey show. still lots more to come in just a minute. i'm going to be joined by labour's shadow paymaster general, jonathan ashworth, to discuss the extraordinary defection of natalie elphicke. then i'll be speaking to the deputy foreign secretary , andrew deputy foreign secretary, andrew mitchell, about the latest round of tory instability and the rwanda plan. i'll also be speaking to former minister sir conor burns about the future of conservatism, whether he agrees with george eustice about whether boris johnson might consider staging a comeback. and i'll be speaking to the author, will hutton, about his new book how to remake britain, which argues that capitalism must be repurposed to work for the common good. so that should . be common good. so that should. be an interesting chat. but let's bnng an interesting chat. but let's bring jonathan ashworth into the conversation now. he's the labour mp for leicester south, as well as being the shadow paymaster general. i'm describing him as labour's resident attack dog because that's what he seems to be these

days. mr ashworth, lovely to see you. this is natalie elphicke. defections absolutely backfired , defections absolutely backfired, hasn't it? what on earth was keir starmer thinking? this woman is a rabid right winger who's attacked labour, and now we find out that she's tried to cover up with the help of the former justice secretary, robert formerjustice secretary, robert buckland. her ex—husband's conviction for sexual assault allegations . allegations. >> well, first of all, camilla, i'm a pussycat, as you know, not an attack dog, but more generally, i think the defection reveals the decay and disintegration of the tory government before our eyes. yes, she has said that the interpretation of events is not one that she recognises, that it is nonsense . but i think her is nonsense. but i think her move is as what is happening across the country with people who have been conservative all their lives or perhaps shifted their lives or perhaps shifted their vote from labour to conservative in more recent years, are shifting now to the labour party, led by keir starmer, because they've had

enough of 14 years of failure. they want to turn the page on 14 years of failure, and they know that another five years of the conservatives with their £46 billion black hole in their plans, would mean tax rises for pensioners or cuts the nhs or a borrowing bonanza putting mortgages up again. >> and that's one way of spinning it. i mean, the other way of spinning it could be that it shows a extraordinary amount of political cynicism by keir starmer, and that labour must have promised her something for this because she isn't standing, is she? you've got your own labour candidate in dover. so what have you promised her? will it be baroness elphicke of dover? come 2025? >> no, we don't make promises. we don't do deals. >> i think you do, because you have given deals to people in the past, haven't you ? well, you the past, haven't you? well, you did give a deal to davies , did give a deal to davies, wasn't it? who was the. who was the tory who defected to you , the tory who defected to you, what's the first name? nigel's with me. it's .

with me. it's. an mp called davies back in the day. and lo and behold, about 18 months later, he ended up with a peerage from labour back in the day. so you don't take responsibility for cronyism in days gone by, well, no, i don't take responsibility for things. >> i had nothing to do with, you know, umpteen years ago. no, i don't that is. so you're guaranteeing i don't do that in life? no >> you're guaranteeing that natalie elphicke will not end up with a peerage under a labour government, are you? >> there is no, no, no deal. no deal has been done. no promises not asked you that natalie elphicke was decent, was disillusioned with the failure to help young people get onto the housing ladder , the housing ladder, disillusioned with the tory failure to bring order to the borders and stop the boats, she looked at keir starmer's labour party. she sees that's the change this country needs , and change this country needs, and she moved over as thousands and thousands of conservatives across the country are doing. i

just want to say this, i am not a very tribal kind of guy. let me say this. i've got friends. i've got relations, i've got neighbours who are conservatives . they're not my enemy. they're my they're my friends. and relations. and i want those people, as many of them are , to people, as many of them are, to shift their vote to labour at the next general election . the next general election. >> yeah. just to say that the mp who was rewarded for his defection to labour was quentin davies . i defection to labour was quentin davies. i knew defection to labour was quentin davies . i knew it was davies defection to labour was quentin davies. i knew it was davies in two thousand and seven, but can you just give me a guarantee because you didn't quite answer that question, mr ashworth , i that question, mr ashworth, i asked you, can you give me a guarantee ? if you haven't done guarantee? if you haven't done any deals, you should be able to do this. that natalie pinnell will not be given a peerage under a future labour government. give me that guarantee this morning. >> i can give you. i can give you a guarantee that no deals have been done. now, that's not the same . and you know it. the same. and you know it. responsible for lords of . i'm responsible for lords of. i'm not responsible for lords appointments. i don't have that power. if i did, i'd be putting you in the lords. camilla. but i

don't have that power, sadly so. but i can guarantee you that no deal has been done. no promises have been made . have been made. >> you know, you're answering a different question to the one i'm asking you. i mean, me and the lords. i think the country suffered enough. mr ashworth, you're not going to answer that. so let's move on. do you really think that the public should be convinced by keir starmer's boast to stop the boats and bnng boast to stop the boats and bring immigration down when he's literally spent his entire political career advocating open borders? in fact, back in the day , he once commented, he once day, he once commented, he once commented that there is a racist undercurrent that permeates all immigration law. well, we calculate, i think there's a report which calculated that he is repeatedly voted against more border control, repeatedly voted against the rwanda plan. here we are , the henry jackson society. are, the henry jackson society. between 2015 and 2022, starmer voted 14 times against stricter asylum system and abstained 22

times, never voting in favour of stricter measures . stricter measures. >> no, no, he voted against hopeless measures that wouldn't work and he worked . i mean, work and he worked. i mean, what's the latest figures? 8 or 9000 have crossed hundreds every day. have all these things we voted against worked? no. and we said we wouldn't work. they wouldn't work . that's why we wouldn't work. that's why we voted against him. we said this incompetent government wouldn't be able to get a grip of it. it's why we've talked about a border security command bringing together the police, the intelligence service. it's like why we've said used terrorist style laws to go after the smugglers , like, you know, smugglers, like, you know, control orders, stop and search, search warrants for premises. these things aren't being used at the moment. these things aren't being used at the moment . we've got to get at the moment. we've got to get tough with these smuggling gangs. that's exactly how we would approach this. and by the way, that massive backlog with people in hotels, around 36,000 people in hotels, around 36,000 people in hotels , that's like a people in hotels, that's like a big neon flashing light to these smugglers saying , big neon flashing light to these smugglers saying, come to big neon flashing light to these smugglers saying , come to the big neon flashing light to these smugglers saying, come to the uk because all that will happen is that you'll be in a hotel paid

for by the taxpayer, and the government will do nothing about it. no, we're going to call time on that racket. we're going to get are you going to process the applications? and if people don't have the right to be here, they will be sent back to their countries of origin. if they don't have the right to be here, are you going to turn boats around back to france ? now? we around back to france? now? we have said we are going to put in place a proper border security command, and we're going to deal with this problem at root by going after these exploitative criminal gangsters who are putting people on these boats. we're going to cooperate . cross we're going to cooperate. cross border, yes, but we're going to use terrorist style laws to go after them. >> how quickly are you going to clear this backlog? could you give us a time frame ? give us a time frame? >> i'm not going to give you a false time frame, because how many times you had a tory minister on your show giving you a time frame, and it turns out to be absolute nonsense. so we've got to look at the, the it's not quite the books, but you need the point that i'm making is, look, we don't know when a general election is. it could be this summer. it could

be november. we've got to look at the situation properly. we're going to look at the people who are in the or in the backlog and then come to a realistic assessment. and we'll be honest with you at that point, but we're not going to make you false promises. gb news viewers are six of the six of the back teeth of politicians, making false promises they know they can't deliver, if the rwanda plan isn't working, why do you think that migrants are trying to get into ireland via northern ireland? well, it isn't working, is it? because there's still hundreds and hundreds of people crossing in boats every day. and the rwanda plan was only ever, ever going to be about 1, 1. what about the other 99? i mean, it's about 1% of processing a huge amount of money. >> but but let me ask you this, mr ashworth, if it does actually end up proving to be a deterrent, just if it does is you're still going to scrap it, but it's not going to be a

deterrent because it isn't a deterrent because it isn't a deterrent , but it's acting as deterrent, but it's acting as a deterrent, but it's acting as a deterrent already, isn't it ? deterrent already, isn't it? because of the ireland situation, many people cross last week, how many people appreciate i appreciate that, but if ireland is a little test case of this, it's a curious deterrence as a curious deterrent. >> if people are still crossing the boat, crossing in boats every day, that's a curious deterrent. i'll pull the. >> but if , if, if. >> but if, if, if. >> but if, if, if. >> i'm just saying, hypothetically, if flights start taking off and it does seem to be acting as more of a deterrent and say between now and the time and say between now and the time a labour government comes in, if those boat crossings do go down and it looks as if it's working, because we had a similar system in australia and at the time labour opposed it. and now, lo and behold, the labour government has embraced it because it's working. what i'm saying is, if it does work, you're still going to scrap it . you're still going to scrap it. >> it's not going to work. i mean, they tried this in israel . mean, they tried this in israel. they tried to do a deal with rwanda. it didn't work. there actually increased people trafficking , but there's trafficking, but there's thousands of people crossing in these boats. and the fact that people know that once they get

here and they get in the asylum system, they get put up in a hotel and they never get processed. that is a massive, massive incentive to. so that is the thing that we need. well, where will you put these people up and you're not going to put them up in hotels? >> where are you going to put them up ? them up? >> we're going to process them and we're going to send them back. if they don't have the right to. how quickly we're going to put 1000, we're going to put a thousand. we think we can do that in the in the first 12 months, we're going to put 1000 new staff into our into a returns and enforcement unit to do just that. and we're going to put a 1200 people into a processing unit to process the backlog in asylum applications. i mean, something like 36,000 people in these hotels costing about £8 million a day, £8 million of taxpayers money a day. and the tories just go, oh, we can't do anything about it. i mean, give me we talk about how can we talk about order to the borders. >> can you tell me about how you're going to accommodate what is predicted to be 40,000 private school pupils whose .

private school pupils whose. parents won't be able to afford the fees if labour puts vat on them, who are then going to have to go into the public sector, how are you going to accommodate those children? 40,000 children might be driven out of private schools by your policy. you're always arguing that schools are already overcrowded . so what already overcrowded. so what will you do? build temporary classrooms or . classrooms or. >> well, first of all, i don't believe that scaremongering . i believe that scaremongering. i mean, the times splashed on it yesterday and it turns out it's what, something like 0.1% or something. 2.7% mongering. i mean, the, the reality is , mean, the, the reality is, because of the, the public finances are shot to pieces because the decisions taken by the conservatives, we've got to make some tough decisions . we've make some tough decisions. we've got to make some tough decisions to change taxation in order to use that money to fund mental health support in every, state sector school, to expand our teaching workforce in state sector schools. these are tough decisions. and no, private schools don't like it. i know

they've spoken out, but in the same way that the state sector has had to make tough accommodations in some ways, the private sector could look to some of the tough accommodations , that the state sector have made. but we do have to look government is difficult. it's about choices. you've got to make tough choices. but i think in the end, if you can improve mental health support in schools across the board for the 90 odd percent, the vast , vast majority percent, the vast, vast majority of children, when we know that so many are suffering from mental health problems, i think thatis mental health problems, i think that is an important and welcome step. >> and what about the mental health of private school pupils who may be plucked from their school environment and taken away from their friends ? what away from their friends? what about their mental mental health? >> well, look, i don't believe i don't believe there will be that flow of numbers from the private sector to the state. >> i would imagine the independent school council knows better than you and they say that 40,000 might leave. so what about their mental health? genuinely? >> well , well look genuinely? >> well, well look i don't i don't i don't accept those

figures. >> i disagree with the independent school council on that front. but in the end, look, look, look, if the tories have made a mess of the public finances as they have, you have got to take some tough decisions somewhere. and we believe this is one of those tough decisions where we can raise money to expand mental health support and teaching support in the state sector for the vast, vast majority of children . majority of children. >> all right. jonathan ashworth as ever, lovely to speak to you this morning. thank you very much indeed . bye bye. bye . much indeed. bye bye. bye. in just a minute, i'm going to be asking the deputy foreign secretary, andrew mitchell, why he's now supporting the rwanda plan. having

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. i'm delighted to be joined again by nigel nelson, senior political commentator @gbnews, because we're waiting for andrew mitchell, the deputy foreign

secretary, to be ready to speak to gb news, jonathan ashworth has had his, weetabix this morning. other breakfast cereals are available. he can't quite answer that question of whether elphicke is going to end up with a peerage . i mean, it's a peerage. i mean, it's interesting that because i'm asking him, can you guarantee that she won't end up with a peerage? and he couldn't. he just can guarantee that no deals have been done. i was citing the previous case. you'll remember it, nigel. my. i had brain fog and the name escaped me. quentin davies in two thousand and seven defected to labour and lo and behold, about 18 months later, he was ennobled. yeah >> i mean, it's the obvious kind of reward that you give mps who abandon their own party and join another one. and you're absolutely right. i mean, jonathan couldn't actually say that, that natalie elphicke or dan poulter will not end up with peerages at the end of it. i mean, what he was repeating was the labour line. and certainly i got this from the labour party.

what they're saying is none of these things were dangled before them as an inducement to, to defect . so it may be down the defect. so it may be down the line that they will get a peerage, but i think jonathan was absolutely right when he said no deals have been done. what he couldn't do is guarantee that sometime in the future they may not they may not end up in the house of lords. >> no, i mean, you know it. he made a good argument, to be fair, in favour of like the spinning of it. in a way. it was quite clever , you know, to just quite clever, you know, to just say, well, it doesn't matter who she is or what she's like, it just suggests that, you know, the conservatives have had enough. the conservatives have had enough . and he kind of likened enough. and he kind of likened it to his own relatives. and this idea, they're trying to use her as an example of how easy it is to switch . from tory to is to switch. from tory to laboun is to switch. from tory to labour, because that's what they need people to do at the end of the day. although, interestingly, did you see that comment by where have i got it, neil kinnock basically saying, where is it, i just wanted to find the precise quote , because find the precise quote, because i was going to ask him and we

ran out of time. the public is not in love with labour. he's making the point. the former labour leader, that actually keir starmer isn't really doing it for the electorate . i would it for the electorate. i would agree with that. you're not coming out going, keir starmer in the way that they did for tony blair. >> no. >> no. >> and i think i think we have to actually accept this is not 1997. n0 to actually accept this is not 1997. no and at the moment what it is, is disillusioned with the tory party. it's partly the thing that that that happens at after a party's been in for a long time. they've had 14 years here, 14 years is really past your sell by date , same thing your sell by date, same thing happened with margaret thatcher. she lasted for 13 years. people became disillusioned with that . became disillusioned with that. new labour lasted for 13 years, and out they went . and out they went. >> so unlucky. 13 it seems, well, unlucky. >> 13 this sort of made one yean >> 13 this sort of made one year, one year further forward, which is held a bit. >> and the other thing i thought was quite interesting. they are sticking to this plan to scrap vat relief for private schools, aren't they? so i mean, i still think it's the politics of envy. i think it's very difficult for

them to give an answer to the question of what does happen to those private school pupils. every shadow minister that comes on, i ask this question. they can't answer it, nigel. they say, oh, the figures are overblown. you have to accept, don't you, that there are going to be thousands of kids whose parents won't be able to afford the fees? will there therefore have to pull them out? and by the way, this policy, it's fine if you're sending your kids to eton or winchester or marlborough college because you're super wealthy, then anyway , this is going to affect anyway, this is going to affect people who are really struggling to pay fees at much smaller, independent schools , well, you independent schools, well, you won't be surprised. i'm actually in favour of the policy on the bafis in favour of the policy on the basis that just the principle of it. i don't think that i think people should spend their money as they wish. if they want to go send their kids to a private school, if they want private health, that's fine. what shouldn't be happening is the taxpayer shouldn't be subsidising it. so that's why taking away , say, the vat break taking away, say, the vat break they get i think is absolutely

right when it comes to the fingers. we just don't know, that well. >> and then at best it's reckless. >> well a lot of well i mean every, every time you make a policy kids you're dealing with, i mean, it's all very well. >> labour saying labour can't just be the party of state school children. it's got to be the party of all children. well i think that is right. >> but the question is, should should parents be getting a tax break on the choice that they want to make? they could go and send their kids to a to a different school. when it comes to the figures, we don't know. schools are trying to get around this. one of the ideas that some private schools have got is you pay private schools have got is you pay fees in advance, which would mean you would dodge the vat. if labour comes to power and schools are saying, you know, they'll give you a reduction if you pay they'll give you a reduction if you pay your fees in advance to a certain extent, but that they still have to at some point accommodate the difference between vat and non vat . between vat and non vat. >> it's going to be passed on to parents. nigel. >> it depends on the party knows that. >> it depends on the school and an awful lot of schools have got legacies. they get donations. it may be that they can absorb the

cost. we don't know. that's what i mean about you can't work out the numbers who might have to be withdrawn by parents who can no longer afford it, and those who would end up staying. >> yeah, i'm still hearing that. we can't get andrew mitchell at the moment. so we're going to carry on our conversation. we are trying, says our producer keith, in my ear. ashworth's an interesting figure, isn't he? i've done quite a lot of work with him on the kind of children of alcoholic space. we're both patrons of the same charity, the national association for children of alcoholics and i have described him as labour's resident attack dog. there because he is quite good at that sort of positioning. he sort of goes on the media and he likes to have a go. starmer needs that because starmer is i mean, he tries to be an attack dog, but he sort of resembles a little puppy ' he sort of resembles a little puppy , do he sort of resembles a little puppy , do you think? i mean, puppy, do you think? i mean, angela rayner would have been the attack dog. we haven't seen a media appearance. no, i think in 45 days. >> apparently angela rayner really can't go out in the pubuc really can't go out in the public at the moment until we've actually sorted out her tax affairs over her accounts. council house, yes. i think

jonathan ashworth was is really good, i was sorry to see he was moved from the health brief. >> sorry, nigel, to interrupt you, but andrew mitchell is with us now. the deputy foreign secretary and the mp for sutton coldfield. mr mitchell, i hope you can hear me. we had a few technical problems. you can hear you very well. >> yes, right . we haven't got as >> yes, right. we haven't got as much time as i thought. we have. so can we just start by talking about nadav popplewell? this is the british israeli who we think now has been killed by hamas . now has been killed by hamas. one of the hostages. can you tell us any more about that, mr mitchell ? because the family mitchell? because the family must be in pieces. they see this video of this chap who's alive, and then hamas seem to be now saying that he's dead , i can't saying that he's dead, i can't add anything to what is publicly known, but my heart goes out to the family at this extraordinary time with the barbarism of these appalling terrorists who, have treated the family in such a cynical, cruel and heartless,

way . and, we must wait for way. and, we must wait for further information , to become further information, to become available. but, what an appalling, dreadful experience for this poor family to have to suffer at the hands of this this absolutely dreadful terrorist organisation. >> i mean, you're talking about hamas being dreadful. it's a proscribed terrorist group. yet at the same time, there is this sense that we're getting from david cameron and the government that you think that israel is being disproportionate now in its response, not least because of the incursion in rafah, do you think that benjamin netanyahu has been overplaying his hand now, mr mitchell? well we've made it very clear, as have our allies , the americans, have our allies, the americans, that without a plan it would be a big mistake to launch a military attack on rafah. >> and we have not yet seen , >> and we have not yet seen, that plan. but equally, we make it absolutely clear that israel has the right to self—defence .

has the right to self—defence. the events that took place, the pogrom that took place on october 7 was a terrible, terrible deed. more jewish people got murdered on that day than on any other day since the end of the second world war. and . the holocaust. so, we are very clear that israel has the right to self—defence, but equally that it must act within the boundanes that it must act within the boundaries of international humanitarian law. >> why did the uk government then abstain on that vote? this week at the un general assembly , week at the un general assembly, with regard to giving the palestinian territories the right to become a full un member, the abstention . does member, the abstention. does seem to be slightly outside of the rest of the western world. saying no to that idea. >> we've been very clear that we do think that it is right to recognise palestine as a state at the united nations at the right time, and that doesn't have to be at the end of the process for peace, it could be

as part of those negotiated lie—ins and britain will support palestine, become , a state at palestine, become, a state at the un when we feel the time is right. that isn't now, but it may, as i say, be before the end of the peace process, which we very much hope will come when the fighting stops. and this dreadful, set of circumstances, the catastrophe in gaza is over. there will then be a chance for people to lift their eyes to a political process. and it's worth remembering also that the great progress that was made at oslo when we got so close to a two state solution, that process took place on the back of the intifada. so out of great disaster, misery, gloom and catastrophe can come political process and britain is in the forefront of countries trying to make sure that we are ready when that time comes to make that progress. >> quick. final question, mr mitchell, because we've been sadly squeezed on time , in 2022,

sadly squeezed on time, in 2022, you said that you thought the rwanda scheme was, quote, impractical, ineffective and extraordinarily expensive. what's changed? >> well, what's changed is the overall expense . of dealing with overall expense. of dealing with this problem. people coming across the channel in the hands of the modern day equivalent of the slave trader that last year, just the first year, cost to £4 billion just for the first year of asylum seekers in britain. so the comments i made in, 2022 about the rwanda scheme's expense , which was my principal expense, which was my principal reason for opposing it, have been dwarfed by the overall expense of dealing with this problem. and the rwanda scheme does have a role to play. it's not the whole, part of the role. there's many other things that need to be done which the government is now doing. and i greatly welcome that. of course, the recent bill that went through the house of commons was about the question of the safety

of rwanda. and i'm in no doubt at all that rwanda is a safe country. indeed. there's a very strong argument that kigali, the capital city of, of , of rwanda capital city of, of, of rwanda is safer than london is under its labour mayor. >> okay. we'll have to leave it there. thank you very much indeed for joining there. thank you very much indeed forjoining me. andrew mitchell. lovely to speak to you.thank mitchell. lovely to speak to you. thank you, thank you. well, coming up next, i'm going to be joined by tory mp sir conor burns, who's one of boris johnson's closest

welcome back to the camilla tominey show on gb news. sir conor burns joins me in the studio now. the former northern ireland minister and the tory mp for bournemouth west . lovely to for bournemouth west. lovely to see you this morning. thank you for coming in, what's your reaction to the natalie elphicke defection? >> amusement? >> amusement? >> yes. >> yes. >> i think it actually speaks to

something . we all knew where something. we all knew where natalie's politics were. they were on the right of the conservative party. and i think this speaks to something that the public sense and it's shown a little bit when you look at keir starmer's ratings , labour keir starmer's ratings, labour are getting a lot of support because they're not us right now. but there's a sense they don't stand for very much. and i think the fact that starmer is comfortable or appears to be comfortable or appears to be comfortable or appears to be comfortable or is presenting as comfortable, welcoming natalie elphicke in speaks almost to a sort of sense that there is no value, no principle, no guiding stars within the keir starmer labour party. >> although when she criticised the prime minister in her resignation statement, she talked about his incompetence, his inability to stop the boats, basically suggesting that the conservative party is sort of dying on its knees. that's probably a fair assessment. i mean, looking at the numbers still coming in, it was that record of 711 people coming in by boat illegally the wednesday

before last, that five point plan of rishi sunak isn't working , is it? working, is it? >> so look, i think what she said in terms of frustration about the boats situation is widely echoed . i think if you widely echoed. i think if you asked the prime minister himself, we are very frustrated at the inability to close off those options. we're very frustrated at the behaviour of people who are moving through multiple safe countries to come to the uk to claim asylum, when you'd think they'd want to do that in the first safe country they came to. if you, for example , stood on the beach of example, stood on the beach of dover and said women and children first, you get a pretty thin reception. many of these are economic migrants. but where natalie was right, certainly three weeks ago, was in her analysis that labour have no solution to this. so whilst rwanda is not the silver bullet, i think we all accept that it is something that will act as a deterrence. if you don't believe the conservatives on that, you could listen to the new prime

minister and the foreign secretary in the irish republic, who are saying that migrants are going there because of the deterrent effect of rwanda. all the stuff that natalie stood listening to with sir keir starmer in dover at the end of last week were already doing collaboration with the french, breaking the gangs , intelligence gathering. >> the deterrent effect, though maybe it won't take effect until it's too late for the tories. this is the other problem you've got a situation where we had george eustice in earlier. i know you spoke to him in the green room. you know, he's decided, along with 64 others, we heard from nadhim zahawi last week that he's standing down. they're all doing it for their own different reasons. and he made the point in 2019. you had a lot of people resigning as well, but it doesn't exactly evoke sort of confidence in the conservative party. it's a bad look. you know, you're staying, you're going to fight your seat. what's your majority? >> it's 10,100. >> are you worried about it? i'm worried about extremely strongly. >> look, i told my first political fib in 1986 when you had to be 16 to join the

conservative party, and i was 14. so i told them i was 16 to get in. i was back in welwyn hatfield, saint albans, where i was at school, i've seen it come and go. there are cycles in politics, but you keep fighting and a number of colleagues are making decisions. what's right for them , their families, their for them, their families, their careers, many who've reached the top in or near the top in government are taking the calculation that they've done that. they want to do something different . i'm staying because i different. i'm staying because i think those of us who have been involved for a long time have an obugafion involved for a long time have an obligation to stay and fight, and we've seen electoral surprises. yes. we're behind. i think it is as wrong for conservatives to assume that the pubuc conservatives to assume that the public cannot be persuaded to support us, as it is arrogant for labour to assume already that they're going to support them. we haven't even begun an election campaign. tell you one example. you've raised several times this morning the plans that the labour party have for vat on private schools and the change to charitable status . change to charitable status. yes, i went to a private school.

it was a modest private school . it was a modest private school. lots of the parents made sacrifices to a school run by the brothers of the sacred heart in saint albans. many parents who are making sacrifices for their kids will be looking at labour's plans with some anxiety. yes, that's one of the few areas where labour have actually started to spell out what they do. i think when you get into a campaign and they actually compelled to tell us what their plan for government is, things could open up. >> but then you need effective campaigners on the campaign trail giving the counter narrative and the criticism of the current government is they're not landing these blows kind of cleanly enough. they're not sustaining their attack lines. you know , they watered lines. you know, they watered down the net zero pledge, and then it's on to the next thing and the next thing. you work very closely with boris johnson. give us some insight. is he going to come back onto the campaign trail? has he got an appetite for a return to politics? i know you speak to him regularly. politics? i know you speak to him regularly . what's he. him regularly. what's he. >> well, listen, before we do, boris, i mean, look, i go back a couple of years, i do house meetings in my constituency a couple of times a week with just

ordinary folk coming to someone's home and talking to me . two years ago, after the truss circus tent fell in on the conservative party after 49 days, the criticism was that we were incompetent. we didn't know what we were doing. there is no talk about what we are doing and maybe it's a bit technocratic. that's a vast improvement of where we were two years ago. there's a challenge for the prime minister and the whole parliamentary party to explain what we've done in government. take, for example, schools where 90% of schools are now good or outstanding, compared to 60% roughly under labour a decade and a half ago. we've got to do that. we've got to be out selling the narrative about the choice that there will be at the next election . if it's a next election. if it's a referendum on any government that's at the end of its time. that's going to be challenging. if you can turn it into a debate about who's got the right vision for the future of britain, i think keir starmer will fall short on that. look to boris. we're going to need all our talents. we're going to need all our players, all our stars on the field. boris is doing

amazing work on ukraine currently, which is extremely important beyond the days in and outflows of day to day politics. what's going on in ukraine if we let, ukraine down and putin wins the risk to us in the years decades ahead is immense. boris is rallying support. i nearly saw him a couple of weeks ago in new york, where he was rallying the american republicans on this, trying to get them to see the strategic importance of this. i her role will be found for boris in that election campaign . campaign. >> and there's been talk that he's waiting for a phone call from rishi sunak. do you think that phone call is going to be made because there's no love lost . there, is there? boris lost. there, is there? boris johnson still blames rishi sunak, in part for his own demise. >> boris has an analysis of what happened and i think that's his analysis. i think a lot of people now look back on that penod people now look back on that period and realise is that people were out to get boris

from day one. a lot of people never forgave boris for the fact that leave won the referendum and boris sort of lent permission to the sort of liberal mainstream opinion that it was okay to be in favour of national sovereignty. and they were determined to get him. they got him, but he is still out there, a big beast in the tory party. and i want to see all our players on the field. >> do you think he wants to be back on the field of play, notwithstanding what that might mean for people playing rugby with him? >> but metaphorically speaking, anyone who's ever been out on a walkabout or in fact just walking between meetings with bofis walking between meetings with boris johnson sees he's a superstar . yeah, and we need superstar. yeah, and we need that and that mandate. >> he's saying to you, connor, whether you want to do it, that's what i'm trying to drill into here. >> he said it himself. the mandate of 2019 and very many ways was a very personal mandate . he still feels very strongly about levelling up. he feels very strongly about making sure we take the full benefits of brexit. and i think he will. you know, he was not exactly

complimentary in many of their despatch box exchange to sir softy, captain hindsight, whatever the various things he called him, i think he would relish the opportunity to play a part in making sure that keir starmer doesn't get to number 10. >> so you're indicating that he may have the mood. music may be positive on a boris comeback for the campaign. >> well, you never know from one day to the next what view boris will take. i hope, as someone whose name will be on a ballot paperin whose name will be on a ballot paper in the autumn , that we are paper in the autumn, that we are all our stars, including boris on the pitch. >> all right, so you have had regular conversations. i'm just trying to just drill into this because people are being very clear about this. how often do you speak to him? when's the last time you spoke to him, and is this often a topic of the conversation? >> i nearly saw him in new york a couple of weeks ago, but our diaries didn't actually work, he wants to play a part, but he wants. but he's very proud of what? he's this call, but he's very proud of what he's doing on ukraine. that's the one thing that i think he feels during his time in government that he called it right. and he led and coalesced national and

international opinion around the need to stand with the ukrainians against putin's illegal invasion and he's doing that in the states and elsewhere. >> but if he came out on the stump with you in bournemouth west, do you think he'd be an electoral asset ? would it help electoral asset? would it help to convince people on the doorstep he's brought up in various parts of my constituency positively, as someone who had a great vision for britain. >> all right. >> all right. >> conor burns, thank you very much indeed. lovely for your lovely to see you in the studio. i think for the first time it is lovely to see you. up next, i'm going to be talking to my fellow gb news host michael portillo, and then will hutton will join me in the studio to discuss his new book, this time, no mistakes and how to remake britain well has got quite a lot to say about what he thinks the british state is doing wrong, and why populism is doing wrong, and why populism is also a dirty word, so it should be a fascinating discussion. don't go anywhere

i >> welcome back to the camilla tominey show. michael portillo joins me now from paddington. michael, what's on your show at 11? >> hello, camilla. well we're going to be looking at the politics of eurovision. we're going to be considering russian spying techniques. now that russian spies have been expelled from london. 200 years of history at the national gallery. and it's more than 200 years since the invention of the cocktail . it's going to be cocktail. it's going to be national cocktail day. i think that's going to leave me both shaken and stirred. hahahahahahahahaha >> well, bottoms up to that. now, in just a minute, i'm going to be discussing this book with the author, will hutton. it's about how to remake britain. but first, here's a very quick weather update. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb news. >> good morning. welcome to your

latest gb news weather forecast from the met office. looking ahead to today , most of us ahead to today, most of us seeing some further sunshine, but there will be a scattering of thunderstorms developing actually for some northern and . actually for some northern and. eastern parts. quite a murky start this morning, but the low cloud and mist will burn away, so that leaves most of us with some sunshine. but for northern ireland, a scattering of showers developing and come the afternoon many western and northern parts seeing some showers. and these showers will be heavy, possibly thundery in places , and warnings are in places, and warnings are in force right throughout the afternoon and evening. but in the sunshine feeling very warm. highs could reach 27 degrees down towards the south eastern corner. into this evening. the showers continue to rumble on, especially across parts of northern england and scotland. some torrential . downpours some torrential. downpours developing here overnight. elsewhere, turns drier but fairly cloudy but under the cloud it's going to be a mild

night. temperatures for most of us, staying firmly in that double figures. so for most it should be a dry start on monday. still some showers up across scotland, but they should gradually ease a tad. but then down towards the southwest we see this next band of rain move in some heavy rain as that moves its way towards south wales and parts of somerset and dorset. come the afternoon. elsewhere, a largely dry picture. best of the sunshine over towards the east. but for all of us feeling a little bit cooler, i think highs possibly reaching . 20 degrees in possibly reaching. 20 degrees in the east looks like things are heating up boxt boiler as sponsors of weather on gb news. >> welcome back, will hutton. the authorjoins me now with his new book. here it is this time, no mistakes how to remake britain. hopefully you can see that will. lovely to see you. thank you very much for coming in. well how do we remake britain and what will a remade britain and what will a remade britain look like? >> well, a great deal more

vigorous than we are now. i mean, my big contention is that a strong economy, a strong society and a and a effective state and democracy are all kind of interlinked. yes. so on all those three metrics, things would be better. the economy would be better. the economy would be better. the economy would be growing more vigorously, our society would be less fractured and our democracy would be less tortured, capital ism isn't easy to get right. and one of my big, the other kind of central contention of the book is that we have we have become a low investment economy in society. time to invest in ourselves. and actually, capitalism, if it works well, is innovative, it's dynamic, it delivers well, but it has propensities to go off the rails. it generates monopoly inequity, booms and busts , inequity, booms and busts, economic rent. and so it's got to have guiderails , it's got to to have guiderails, it's got to be actively superintended. and my argument is that, brutally, there's been too much laissez faire, free market fundamentalism to and too little attention to how to kind of

curate capitalism better. >> yeah, but you say too much laissez faire. i mean, you speak to businesses these days, they now say that they've returned to the days of overregulation. >> i'm not sure that's what i say mid to tell me, actually, but maybe they, maybe they maybe there are two different things. but i think, i mean most kind of enterprises kind of obviously they want kind of a degree of economic stability, but they know that especially if you're operating at the frontier of technology, you're doing any innovative. it's very risky. and most companies don't want to bet the farm on kind of one innovation, which may go pear shaped. they know they need infrastructure of support. they know they need some of that risk mitigated , and they know that mitigated, and they know that they can look to a public agency to do that. so there's very few business models of our top companies which one way or another, have been helped along by the state. and so they know that and they don't want it to be kind of suffocating. they want it to be a kind of supportive, but they know they need it. >> i love what you're writing in the book about how we need a we society , and you're saying that

society, and you're saying that progressives and liberals should be promoting this. my impression is that at the moment, progressives and liberals are promoting a me society. it's all about them and not about everyone else. and i say that in regard to a lot of the things we've witnessed with some of the pro—palestinian protests , this pro—palestinian protests, this idea of individualism and a degree of narcissism taking on from kind of caring about the collective, you could look at the trans debate, for instance. is that a fair point from me or not? >> i'm going to see if i can work with it to get some common ground here. >> i mean, my we society kind of may like a venn diagram overlap with yours kind of. what i try to argue in the book is that is that we human beings are profoundly social. and i quote aristotle at one point saying any man or woman doesn't want to partake of society, live the common life is either a beast or a god , i quote a you know, a god, i quote a you know, there's a great poet . john donne there's a great poet. john donne says, no man is an island. so, you know, that's where i'm that's my starting off point. and i want to blend , kind of

and i want to blend, kind of weakness, that's having a floor and below which no one can fall with actually kind of progressive into progressive liberalism, kind of allowing there to be kind of ladders of which individuals can climb cognisant that they have obugafions cognisant that they have obligations to society, and society will, of course, reciprocal obligations to them. that's the vision of the we society . now, how can i build society. now, how can i build your point about, have the narcissism of some protests , i narcissism of some protests, i suppose they would. and here it gets here where i am, you know, one walks a tightrope. i mean, i think that i think that, i, i definitely rebut identity politics. i you know, i do think it's kind of i do think it kind of builds division between. so, so in that sense, i think we could . probably, if we had time could. probably, if we had time longer than the 3 or 4 minutes. that reminds us, we could

probably get somewhere in one minute. >> 30, i'm told in my ear only because andrew mitchell was late, will. but yeah, we both reject identity politics because it's divisive. there's more that unhes it's divisive. there's more that unites us than divides us. social media has played a role in driving a wedge. absolutely, absolutely. >> no, i'm very critical about that. i mean, i do think i mean, i do think i'm very supportive of this kind of attempt to get kind of better superintendents of content for kids, yes. and actually, i think it's correct that actually parents should be extremely wary about how much screen time they allow their kids to have. so, i mean, that all that, i mean, social media and the echo chamber in which one occupies when one plunges into it. now not hearing contrary views to one's own crucial in a democracy to kind of engage with others and, and try to build kind of common facts that we share, then respond to them developing policy . but let's start with policy. but let's start with common facts. and the trouble with social media, you don't have common facts. >> this is why we have people like you on this show. >> this is why we have people like you on this show . well, like you on this show. well, hutton, because i come back, we don't agree , but we have don't agree, but we have disagreed agreeably and that's why we want to have the debates on gb news. we will have you back because i'd like to speak to you further. and we've been squeezed. can you blame the

deputy foreign secretary for that? this is will's book. let's give it a new plug, because his time has been squeezed. but it's a great read, thank you very much for joining a great read, thank you very much forjoining me for today, much for joining me for today, we'll be back next week at 930. but of course, up next, drinking

sunday. away. >> good morning and welcome to sunday with michael portillo. shakespeare's sonnet tells us that rough winds do shake the darling buds of may. rishi sunak and the scottish national party might agree . but this week might agree. but this week glorious spring weather has shone upon some term of this blessed plot. our sceptred isle ihope blessed plot. our sceptred isle i hope that the next two hours of arts, culture and world affairs will brighten and adorn

your sunday following the